ro-monster

Well...I crashed at low speed, falling off the bike more or less sideways. (I braked suddenly to avoid a car that pulled out from the curb and torqued the front wheel to one side in the process. I was on the ground so fast I didn't even realize I was falling.) I landed on my shoulder and shattered it, resulting in two surgeries, 2.5 months of absence from work, and seven months of rehab. It could just as easily have been my head that hit first. Low speed does not mean you can't be seriously injured.

stapfam

Easy way to see if you need a helmet. Lie on the floor and get someone to drop a club hammer on your head from a height of 6ft. When you come out of ER- you can decide.

Liddy

Well, it was an innocent enough question. An invitation for a mutually respectful discussion of the evidence and yet so many replies are characterised by sarcasm! One poster didn't so much ask why I would get on a horse without protective headgear, but I don't do the same on a bike, rather he said I wasn't smart enough to do that on a bike! Another poster says the most he wears on his head when on a horse is felt, but he wears a helmet riding a bike. Just by way of clarification, even the quietest horse can unexpectedly spook and from a quiet standing start, can spin on a sixpence and bolt at potential speeds in excess of 30mph. Horses also rear, buck and practically turn themselves inside out should the mood take them. They can also do a lot of that When being worked with on the ground, so I also use a hard hat lunging and long reigning. I know I'm a beginner ad a cyclist, but I'm not aware of a bike or any other inanimate object that can do all of that.

I don't have a closed mind. Quite the contrary. I am a scientist and I tends to make a lot of my decisions based upon evidence. I was hoping for a chat about the evidence while I mull the issue over. I am taking seriously your accounts of your falls, but I must respectfully say to the poster who injured his shoulder and said that it could just as easily have been his head, that there is nothing to suggest that! The fact is we are all much more likely to impact out extremities in a fall, followed by much more likely to impact the wider parts of our torso ( shoulders and hips) than our heads, unless we are flung a great force quickly enough that we can't move our bodies in the air (instinct will always make us move to protect out heads). I was once thrown sideways 10 feet from a horse into a breeze block wall. The horse was travelling at speed and I hit the wall at speed. I still ended up with my arm in front of my face. My arm was badly damaged. It will never again fully straighten, but it did not impact my head. However, the risk of being flung across a distance will have me wearing a helmet if and when I ride on the roads. I have no interest in mountain biking, but that seems like an occasion to wear one two.

Those of you would want to take a patronising and sarcastic tone to telling others they are idiots if the don't do what you do. What is your real evidence (not anecdotal accounts of what you think might happen without a helmet) that wearing a helmet for the different types of riding significantly reduces risk?

alcanoe

Impacting the asphalt from the height of a bike will break the skull at zero bike-speed according to some literature I read some years ago. That was due to just the acceleration of gravity (falling).

I had a near head-cracker in the 70's. We were on a family ride and stopped at a railroad crossing for some reason. I got back on my bike and was just getting started when the front wheel slide out on a rail. I hit that rail with my head. I was stunned for 10 to 15 seconds and I was wearing a state of the art helmet for the times.

There is no valid technical argument for not wearing a helmet. The risk is well defined/documented. One can't predict the future and therefore the nature/severity of an accident. Head injuries have a higher risk of serious disabilities.

Helmets are light and very well vented especially if one is willing to buy the mid to higher-end models.

There's also a responsibility, much ignored to keep one's self fully functional to support one's self and his family. There's also a responsibility, again much ignored to not become a burden on society. As the old saying goes, one's rights end where another's begins. It's a balancing act concerning the personal freedom/rights thing.

Al

bradtx

Liddy, My remark about the felt hat was simply an effort to put into context helmet usage with an activity that you are familiar with and stress the point that it's your/my head, your/my decision... not a sarcastic barb. In retrospect I can cringe at how I've ridden horses... galloping through the woods, wearing only cut off jeans while bareback.

Collective wisdom is one is better off wearing a helmet than not for the types of bicycling accidents that most often occur. Crashing while cycling is a bit different from crashes in horseback riding or motorcycling. Speed is often slow enough that there isn't the sliding and/or rolling available to scrub off energy, at least in my experiance. While the head may not may the initial contact with a solid object, it most likely will make subsequent contact during a crashing event and I'd like to minimalize neural damage.

Brad

maddmaxx 

Consider if you will the concept of a 0mph fall (of the still clipped in Club Tombay style if you will) toward the side where you get snagged by something protruding from your bike limiting your ability to get a foot out to slow the fall and where nothing breaks your fall untill you land on your side and shoulder.

Now contemplate the momentum of the head falling through this arc and the ability or lack thereof of your neck muscles in keeping the head from striking the ground.

Add in an additional thought of something as insignificant as a 2" rock protruding slightly from the dirt of the trail.

Now, what do you think that rock can to to the skull either by penetrating it or by providing a solid enough surface to cause the brain to strike the inside of the skull.

A relatively inexpensive layer of decelerating foam covered with a thin shell that minimizes penetration might be a reasonable insurance policy..........eh.



I've had that fall, fortunately without injury. I wonder how many others have.

BluesDawg

MinnMan

Oh that's rich. You're new to the forum, you walk in knowing full well that you're throwing a bomb, you get a pile of people replying with factual information, a few with a little snark, and then you act thin-skinned and lecture us on our tone. And on top of that, you ignore the most important message that was repeated to you again and again - serious bicycle accidents involving your head can happen on trails and in the absence of appreciable speed.

This is perhaps the most constructive and respectful forum on cycling around. If you don't believe me, try posting the same query to the road biking forum and see the response you get. A whole bunch of people took some time to give you the benefit of their experience. If it didn't change your mind, that's your business, but if the information provided isn't enough for you, then I suggest you and the rest of us move on to a different topic.

10 Wheels

We came across that guy on one of our rides.

Retro Grouch 

The truth is that you hardly ever need a helmet. Unfortunately, it's impossible to predict when those rare occasions, in which a helmet will protect you, are going to happen. In the past 15 years I've had two bicycling accidents which resulted in ambulance rides to the emergency room. Neither involved other traffic and both occured when I had planned low stress low speed rides.

cyclinfool

As a scientist I am sure you are faced with doing risk benefit analysis as well as the laws of probability. Just because you don't observe an event doesn't make it an impossibility, and if an event has a reasonable albeit small probability of occurrence, a high consequence if it does occur and a low cost to provide some mitigation is it not reasonable to take those measures. My sarcastic response addresses just these points, I have never observed myself having the potential of a serious head injury while riding on the road, therefore I should not assume it won't happen. I have had several MUP incidents under the conditions you suggest and the helmet protected me.

You knew by you own admission that you were going to get a lot of attention with this thread. Don't complain, you got what you asked for.

alcanoe

I'm an engineer/scientist (retired).

Those of us in the technical fields are supposed to have a thick skin as we are to expect criticism for our ideas/concepts and have to prove our ideas/challenges correct. That's doubly so when we challenge apparently soundly based conventional wisdom.

We also know how to do literature research to equip ourselves with data and rational before we enjoin other's to comment. Again, that's especially important when attacking conventional wisdom.

I suspect you are looking for a fight based on your accusatory, non-scientific response. Then too, there's the total lack of preparation (for a scientist) as demonstrated by your original post.

The comments here were not impolite and were exactly what one would expect given the nature of the question. You were getting an aggressive defense of the conventional wisdom which in this case is well founded until you make a case otherwise. Hand-waving horse-stuff won't do here.

In other words, the evidence is believed so conclusive, that the tone of the answer is typical of a "dumb question". You'll get that in scientific debate among peers when attacking long held and what appear to be well founded conclusions/theories.

The burden of proof is not on the defenders of conventional wisdom, but on you. It's up to you to make the case for no-helmet rather than attacking those who strongly believe it's a really dumb idea are "patronizing and sarcastic".

That might work at your lab, it didn't at mine.

For such an open mind, you are quick to question other's motives. That is NOT the scientific approach!

Al

bradtx

10 wheels, What a CPS moment.

Brad

PS Just to validate unexpected moments... I just took care of a 10 lb. 'possum that one of my dogs just brought into the house! I dumped it into the field next to my yard and expect him to run off in about 20 minutes.

Liddy

I'm honestly not looking for a fight. I originally posted a link the the debate on Wikipaedia. And whilst I accept that isn't a literature search, it sites many of the research papers and the points for an against. I was looking for a discussion of the pros and cons. I think if you take a look through some of the responsive you will see that some of them were indeed sarcastic and patronising. I raised the point about horses because there the issue is also about the risk of head injury and hard hats.

Thank you to those of you who, although taking issue with the idea of not wearing helmets, offered a reasoned response not characterised by sarcasm.

AzTallRider

Actually, you asked for opinions, which is what you can expect to find here, or on any forum. If you want to make your decision based purely upon studies, then go read what you can find, evaluate accuracy and applicability, and make your decision. You appear to have done that, but are now looking for contrary opinions, probably because you have doubts about the decision you made. If that's not the case, then you were trolling for exactly the type of responses you received. In either event, you got what you asked for. You shouldn't have asked for it, in the manner you did (which was very "challenging"), if you were going to respond in such a thin-skinned manner.

Also, you are making your decision based not on the factual evidence you claim to seek and use as a scientist, but using your own anecdotal analysis of what body part is going to be injured, and how biking is inherently safer than riding a horse. Based on what, exactly? Yet at the same time you admit to being a total newb as a rider that can't ride a straight line. Yep, that sure sounds safer! Have you stopped to think that, just maybe, those folks who have been riding awhile, and actually experienced accidents on a bike, might just know a teensy weensy bit more about how likely it is to hit your head, and what that can mean. You know what it's like on a horse, and wear a helmet as a result of that knowledge. We know what it's like on a bike, and wear a helmet (or not) as a result of that knowledge.

Nobody here is saying you have to do what they do, and nobody is far away in tone from what you have posted. Either go back to your studies and hush up, or listen (objectively) to the responses you provoked.

Liddy

I'm honestly not looking for a fight. I originally posted a link the the debate on Wikipaedia. And whilst I accept that isn't a literature search, it sites many of the research papers and the points for and against. I was looking for a discussion of the pros and cons. I think if you take a look through some of the responses you will see that some of them are indeed sarcastic and patronising. I raised the point about horses because there the issue is also about the risk of head injury and hard hats.

Thank you to those of you who, although taking issue with the idea of not wearing helmets, offered a reasoned response not characterised by sarcasm.

Liddy

I'm honestly not looking for a fight. I originally posted a link the the debate on Wikipaedia. And whilst I accept that isn't a literature search, it sites many of the research papers and the points for and against. I was looking for a discussion of the pros and cons. I think if you take a look through some of the responses you will see that some of them are indeed sarcastic and patronising. I raised the point about horses because there the issue is also about the risk of head injury and hard hats.

Thank you to those of you who, although taking issue with the idea of not wearing helmets, offered a reasoned response not characterised by sarcasm.

DnvrFox

You are really not making a scientific decision. You are making a risk management decision, based upon your perception of the risk of your not wearing a helmet vs, whatever reasons you might find for not wearing a helmet - be that discomfort or whatever - I am not clear why you would not want to wear a helmet. Cost? looks? discomfort?

It is a personal call, not a scientific one. However, there are certain known facts:

1. Everyone riding a bcycle eventually falls - at least I don't know anyone who hasn't, and if they haven't, there is about a 99% chance they will eventually.

2. Some of those fallw will involve serious or fatal injury, some will not.

3. A helmet can be useful in preventing or reducing the seriousness of injuries.

Again, what I don't understand is the negative side of wearing a helmet??

In any event, absent state laws in your state, it is your call.

But, with the current state of resarch in the area, it is far from scientific.

ModeratedUser150120149

Like you say there has been lots of sprited debate on this issue. So, I won't bore you with any opinions, respected or otherwise. I'll just tell you my experience that converted me.

I had a cheap Huffy, have no idea what it was made of, I can tell you it wasn't very heavy and I primarily used it around the neighborhood at low speeds. More to learn how to ride after not doing that since Jr. High. So, I didn't wear a helmet. There was a sale on them at a local store so I had bought a cheap Bell helme because the local military installation required them and I wanted to use their light traffic area.

A short time later I was riding with my helmet because I was going to go on the military installation. Had I not been planning on going there I would not have had the helmet on my head. I was hit, head on, by another cyclist while I was going down a fairly steep hill and he was going up. I went head over heels obliquely onto a gravel strewn MUP and and slid into gravel on the shoulder. The sliding impact ground through the plastic on the helmet, broke the metal frame on my glasses, put a part of the frame into the eye socket but below the eyeball, put rash on my chin and down my back. Had I not been wearing the helmet the impact would have abraded all the flesh from one side of my head and face starting above the ear and continuing down to the chin. The helmet kept my head off the ground except for a glancing rash on the chin.

The other cyclist accepted responsibility and paid for all bills. But, I was the one who had to heal.

So, make your own choice but I am an example where the helmet probably didn't save my life but did save my appearance. One could argue I suppose, but to me death is not the worst thing that can happen. Being disfigured in a major way ranks right up there with the worst.

Just my experience for your decision making.




By the way: A key, if not The Key, in this kind of decsion is whether a person can accept the worst consequence they can reasonably conceive. I wear a helmet because I cannot accept the consequences of potential injury of not wearing it.

Liddy

Thank you. That's thought provoking. I haven't entirely decided not to wear one. I am just tootling around my local small Victorian Park at the moment. There is nowhere for anything to come out of the blue there and (having only just learned to pedal), I don't have the bottle to ride down hill yet Someone asked if it occurred to me that posters here all have a lot of cycling experience. I do get that and I am listening. I still don't think I need a helmet for the tootling, but I am open to taking account of others' reasonably presented views and I may well decide to wear one when I venture further.

As I said before, I'm mulling it over.

Dchiefransom

I've got to wear something to cover my bald head, so it might as well be a helmet. If I didn't wear one for 3-5 hours in the sun, I'd be in the hospital for sure.

MWS

I'm a newb but in the short time I've been riding bicycles it appears to me bicycle helmet designers and manufacturers have done a very poor job. I am a lifelong motorcycle rider and motorcycle helmets are far superior in design, function and safety. Motorcycle helmet manufacturers have made good use of all the composite materials available now like carbon fiber and kevlar. The motorcycle helmet industry discovered a long time ago that when plastic hits asphalt it can cause as much harm as it is designed to prevent. Maybe there is a bicycle helmet manufacturer that I'm not aware of that is using 21rst century materials but I'm not convinced I need a cheap plastic dorky looking helmet like I see on the local greenway. By the way I would never ride my motorcycle without a helmet.

longbeachgary

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Anyone who posts a thread about wearing a helmet or not is looking for a fight. The "debate" never goes on respectfully. The bottom line is if you want to wear a helmet, go ahead, if not that's cool too but don't make lame excuses.

cyclinfool

OK - so I get your point, you feel your risks are way low and so therefore you don't need the extra protection. Let me try another argument on you - just what if some young child sees you tootling around and observes your lack of helmet, then when Mom is not looking goes off and tootles around without a helmet because that nice lady adult roll model thought it was the right thing to do. Lets just say that was one of your kids or grandkids (I apologize for the assumptions here). Then that kid takes a fall and splatters their brains all over the sidewalk. Now was it worth it. It is just not US - there are others watching. My daughter would not let me ride with her if I was not wearing my helmet - even she gets it.

Enough said - this thread is off my response list - like trying to teach a pig to sing, you just get frustrated and it makes the pig angry.

ron521

I once fell at a bowling alley when I stepped onto a section of freshly waxed lane just inches past the "diamonds". My feet flew forwards from under me, and I fell on my back, striking my head nearly hard enough to lose consciousness, and plenty hard enough to give myself a headache. Given that I was only moving at 3-5 mph, I wonder how I'd have done if I had fallen from a faster moving bicycle?

One suggestive answer comes from an experience in which, in 1975, without a helmet, I jumped an old motorscooter on a bicycle ramp some kids had built on the sidewalk down the street from my house. The scooter lept into the air in a very enthusiastic manner, but it's rear wheel rose much further than the front. I went over the bars and landed almost face first on the sidewalk. I WAS unconscious for a while this time. Bruised badly, with a "Frankenstein's monster" scar on my forehead, but nothing broken, and a VERY severe headache which lasted a couple of days.

I purchased my first bicycle helmet around 1995, and found a couple of things:
I absolutely don't even know it is there. Get a decent fit and it is not distracting in the least.
On a sunny day, it promotes cooling by keeping most of the top of my head shaded.
This is especially true for people who select a helmet color lighter than their hair, and for people with thinning hair.

I have never heard of anyone dying because of wearing a bicycle (or motorcycle) helmet, but plenty who have died because they didn't.