ModeratedUser150120149

First legality: I don't ride in many states. In those I do it is not legal to impede traffic which is defined as keeping people from passing if you are doing less the speed llmit. In fact, in a couple states it is the law that if you have 5 or more vehicles behind you and you are doing less than the speed limit you MUST pull over and let all the traffic pass. This applies regardless of propulsion method of the vehicle, or the vehicle.

Second courtesy: One needn't cower on the edge of the ditch to show courtesy to other road users. Just be predictable, let others know you know they are there and will make way as soon as practiical and in general conduct yourself as a fellow human is all that is required. Amazng how contgious that is.

CbadRider

Thread title changed.

B. Carfree

In many states there is case law that exempts bicycles from these slower moving vehicle obligations. The reasoning is that as long as the vehicle is doing its maximum reasonable speed it doesn't lose its right-of-way, otherwise no one could ride. Some states deal with this by referencing only MOTOR vehicles in their slow moving vehicle statutes.

As to those who claim motorists behaving as bullies is common sense, I believe it was Einstein who called common sense the collection of prejudices accumulated by age eighteen.

Just for the record, in my experience most motorists pass me illegally. (In fairness, this is in large part due to Oregon's unique (and largely unenforced) vulnerable road user passing law which requires a motorist to give a cyclist room to fall in the motorist's direction if there is no bike lane and the speed limit exceeds 35 mph.) Also, I spend much more time waiting for motorists than they spend waiting for me. However, like HawkOwl, I do everything I can to facilitate SAFE passing of me by motorists, especially for those who behave themselves. I don't mind pulling out into a driveway when climbing a winding road to let someone by, but I do mind people passing me on blind corners where there is clearly not room to do so; I take the lane to discourage such behavior.

akohekohe

The OPer has changed the OP. To answer the new question, why don't you ask the club? Seriously, if there has been more than a few instances where the OP has been significantly delayed by the club's actions then it is not unreasonable to talk to the club about it. Find out when and where they meet and talk to them about it, or even go on one of their rides ...

drmweaver2

As this thread loses "cohesion" due to amendment and modification of title and original post, my last question is "who gets to decide 'what's necessary' in terms of 'occupying road real estate'"?

Gotta love moving targets.

Wogster

The issue of passing is an interesting one, and why the law is the way it is, you need to look at history, when such laws were initially passed, in the 1920's and 1930's. Often the majority of roads at that time were dirt or gravel roads, where from road edge to road edge you had maybe 20 feet, the middle 10-12' would have been in pretty decent shape, hard packed from traffic, most people would drive down the middle of the road. The outside edges might be overgrown or soft gravel, few urban people even older ones have ever seen one of these roads, but some rural roads are still this way, even today. There were people who didn't like the then still new horseless carriage, and they would run their wagon down the middle of the road, and refused to move over to allow traffic to pass, in either direction, so governments passed laws saying you had to. Those laws were sufficient and they are still worded the same today, which is why you see things like turn out to the right, rather then keep to the right lane. That kind of road still exists today, and people still use them the same way, fortunately they tend not to get a lot of traffic, so slowing down and easing past another vehicle isn't a hardship.


Now we come to the standard 12' lane on a paved, two lane road, if I am on the right side of the road, then there is another lane for passing, and if someone feels that they can't pass using that lane, then the only other option they have is to stay behind, until they feel it is safe. It should not matter whether the vehicle ahead is a bicycle at 15MPH or a car a 15MPH or a truck at 15MPH or a horse and buggy at 15MPH, eventually there will be a chance to pass, safely. The problem is that there are too many drivers of motor vehicles who have the idea that speed limits are minimums and anything that prevents them from going somewhat over that limit, at all times and in all places, should not be on the road.

Of course if there are no passing opportunities for an extended period, then the slower moving vehicle should move over, when it is safe to do so, but that does not mean immediately as soon as another vehicle approaches from the rear, it means when there is a turn out that allows the slow moving vehicle to get off the road. The few roads I know of that don't have a road or driveway every 1/2 mile or less, are roads that have so little traffic that, even if you can't see far out ahead, the chances of hitting something while passing is pretty slim.

jdon

Taken from BlueDawg's signature.

"It sucks to be harassed by *******s in cars while you’re on a bike.
It also sucks to drive behind *******s on bikes."

That about sums it up.

It isn't fun to be stuck behind ignorant cyclists while driving but it isn't worth my while to try to educate them.

We have an image problem as cyclists and it is well founded. To argue the laws give us the same rights to roads also implies we follow those laws. That is seldom the case in my observation.

BlazingPedals

There is actually case law that holds a bicycle traveling at a speed appropriate for a bicycle is NOT impeding traffic. Bicycles, after all, ARE traffic. As has been stated before, to rule otherwise would essentially require cyclists to yield every time there was a car behind them, thus making a mockery of them having any sort of right to the roads.

Looigi

Not entirely true. It depends a lot of other sources of ambient noise. You won't hear a car behind you if there is one beside you, for instance. This is often the case on busy roads where there may traffic traveling beside you either going the same direction or in the other direction, loud trucks, busses, etc. And if you're riding fast, wind noise can seriously interfere with your ability to hear a car approaching from behind.

AzTallRider

These are all examples of additional circumstances that can be dealt with, and handled, without a mirror. I'm not knocking people that use them - I just prefer not to, and am able to know what is happening around me without one.

stapfam

Ex mountain biker and I have always been considerate to other road users on the road. Cars and trucks are bigger than me and they hurt if you hit them. Over here most mountain bikers have the same opinion and single file on the roads is the norm for them. Roadies are different though. They realise they have a right to use the road and they seem to take advantage of it. Difference over here is that most road groups are only 4 to 8 riders so not a major problem. I have come across pace lines that are 10 riders and no problems- Basically single file and one rider dropping back to make a double line. Then there are the groups where they do take double file and I tried riding with one of these groups once. Bit larger with about 20 riders and they know their rights. They can ride double file and the cars have to take care--Except the bikes taking up a long length of road and no space to overtake a few and drop into a gap. Each bike pair is about 6ft behind the one in front so 10 pairs and that can be 100ft. Fine on a main road where you can see well ahead but twisty lanes and you are stuck behind them.

But the groups that really get me are the fit ones that race each other up the road. Cresting a hill and 3 riders will go for it. It is like one of the professional races at times- except you as a car driver are in the middle of it. And as a cyclist I realise that two riders racing close together and a wheel touch is a possibility. I stay well away from them but also try to get past them as soon as possible.

Cyclists are very vulnerable and they should realise this. But there will always be a bright spark that knows his rights and can cause a problem to other road users. Just hope they don't do it in front of me when I am driving

gcottay

And then you have riders like me who would rather ride bare naked than be without a mirror. Some of the difference probably lies in differing abilities in shoulder checking. Mine are grossly inadequate in dealing with any sort of complicated traffic.

GetUpnGo

Interestingly those defending the right of cyclists to take the lane haven't explained how long they think it's reasonable for them to do so. Of course I don't mind waiting until a cyclist can find a safe place to pull over. I don't expect anyone to jump in the ditch for me.

Let's say that on a given 25-mile network of back roads there is NO section that meets the ideal passing requirements described herein (straightaway with x hundred feet of good visibility; x feet of passing space; etc.). This is possible and likely in my area. Are some posters saying it would be ok for a cyclist to occupy his lane for 25 miles, or an hour and a half or so? The absurdity of that shows that this is not really a question of legality or safety.

No one wishes to deny cyclists their safety, nor inconvenience them unduly. The question is, ***What is reasonable behavior given that many roads in the U.S. don't present ideal cycling and passing conditions?*** Bikes and cars are not really compatible. That problem will remain until the U.S. has a large network of bike paths. Given current conditions, how many minutes do you think is reasonable for a cyclist to take the lane with traffic behind? One minute? Five? Twenty?

Personally, when cycling I pull over as soon as I become aware of a car behind me. Whether I do that immediately or in 5 minutes makes no difference at all to me as a cyclist, but I'm aware that it may make a big difference to drivers. If there are 10 cyclists spread out over a 10-mile stretch of road (that's only one per mile, so entirely possible), and each one decides that he has a right to take the lane for five minutes before pulling over, that's a delay of 50 minutes for drivers. I may be out enjoying myself biking on a Saturday morning, while drivers may be trying to get to work.

The discussion of laws, road widths, and so on here is interesting and educational. But it begs the question, what is courteous behavior?

P.S. I also noticed cyclist aggression on the bike paths in Montreal. A poster questioned how a pack of cyclists could run me off the road. That has happened to me both on rural roads and on the bike paths in urban areas. Again, we're talking about attitudes and behaviors that don't have much to do with specific conditions. A well-meaning driver will wait for a cyclist to arrive at a safe place to pull over. A well-meaning cyclist will do that as soon as possible.

Wogster

There is another issue, and this came from a car race driver with many years of racing experience, talking about advanced driving, but it applies equally to cycling, he asked the question "While you are looking over your shoulder doing a shoulder check, where are you NOT looking?". I'll come back to that in a minute or so.

I saw something interesting, and I think it needs to be done a lot more, it's a steepish climb, the road is regularly used by cyclists, I saw 5 others on there today. The county instead of paving just the 12' traffic lane paved an extra 3', on the uphill side, so now a slow moving bicycle can shift further right the MV lane is now 9' wide rather then 6' wide.

Now back to the question regarding the shoulder check, if you haven't figured it out. While your doing a shoulder check, your not looking where your going, which means you could run into something while shoulder checking. I have a take-a-look helmet mounted mirror, I can turn my head slightly while looking in the mirror with one eye to see everything behind me, while the other eye is still looking where I am going. After using that mirror a couple of rides, I can't ride without it.

Doohickie

Obvious troll is obvious.

AzTallRider

After 3 pages, at last we have gotten to a reasonable and clear question.

If it is a question of either me or the cars making progress, because only one of us can, I would limit it to maybe 3 minutes. And if it wasn't my only, and I do mean only, route to go somewhere I had to go (like to work), I'd also find a different place to ride, as this is an unsafe, and unfun, situation for everyone. But I'm also overly prone to letting cars squeeze by when I shouldn't, so most likely I'd be hugging the shoulder really tight, very frequently, to let them pass.

I do that on my commute, on a fast and narrow stretch, because I know how inconvenient it is to have your speed reduced by 25-30mph. It's a 45mph zone, people are speeding, and I'm just leaving a red light, still getting up to cruising speed. Road widens, then narrows again. I take the lane at the intersection, move over when it widens (for a bus stop), and then usually just stay guttered through the squeeze. My wife will probably be putting "Failed to Take the Lane" on my headstone.

AzTallRider

Looking behind you, either over your shoulder or under your arm, is a skill one needs when racing. Using it while training, commuting, and pleasure riding increases that skill for me. It's all about awareness. Some people are always aware of what's around them, using whatever tools they have. Others are rarely aware, regardless of what tools they have. I try to be one of the former, and as I'm not going to be using a mirror racing, I don't want to be dependent on one.

BengeBoy 

The suburb where I live has a scenic, narrow, twisty perimeter road that is very popular with cyclists. 99.9% of all drivers on these roads are *super* considerate about cyclists, but every couple of years there will be a spat between drivers and cyclists caused by the awkward mix between the two on this road (letters to the editor, complaints to the city, crackdown by the cops on minor traffic infractions by cyclists).

So, mostly it's "peaceful co-existence," with the occasional skirmish.

Into this tense mix, we now add two or three area cycling clubs that sponsor group rides around this perimeter road. One club -- which I saw again yesterday -- will sometimes gather 50 to 75 cyclists for a ride, and then ride two abreast the entire distance, which frequently expands to three-abreast if someone is pulling out of the paceline. *At the same time,* since it's such a popular cycling run, there will be clusters of solo cyclists coming in the other direction. While everything is strictly legal, you can imagine that cars get a little bit testy. On a couple of occasions, while on my bike, I've had to head into the ditch because impatient drivers were zooming around these big group rides and the drivers didn't see me (on a bike) coming from the opposite direction.

I've written one local club a couple of times asking them to cool it. Without getting down to the specific language of the traffic statutes, my point with them has been that in a little suburb where we mostly have good manners between cars and bikes we don't need big group rides upsetting the balance. And I especially don't need big group rides distracting drivers and getting me flattened.


Sometimes it seems we're our own worst enemies.

John_V 

Since I started this thing with the mirror, besides it being the law in Florida, this is my reason for having them on both my bikes. I was with the Sheriff's Office here for 18 years and I know that the law is not enforced when a LEO sees a bike without a mirror. They are not going to stop you for not having one, even if you pull along side of them at a traffic light. They may tell you that you are required to have one, but they won't pull you over for it. However, if you are stopped for another infraction, I guarantee you that the "no mirror" violation will be added as a second citation. Since I don't race, do triathlons, or time trials, I put the mirrors on to avoid a citation if I ever got stopped. I have since gotten used to them and now use them all the time on public streets and on the park path.

Since we have been citing laws on this thread, then anyone riding a bike without a mirror on public roads in a state, county or city that mandates them is, in fact, breaking the law. Even if you think it's a dumb law.

BlazingPedals

I've been stuck for 10 miles and more at a time, behind a slow-moving car. I didn't expect them to pull over into the next driveway; I just waited for my inevitable chance to safely pass. It might be different if traffic was backed up for a mile behind me, but that's not what we're talking about, is it? Not on a narrow winding road that a cycling group might be using, trying to avoid traffic...

Wogster

Not everybody races, as I don't race, and my safety is my most important consideration, I use a mirror, and have a rear light in blink mode when riding, during the day. I find it interesting that they DON'T use mirrors during racing, while your shoulder checking, what happens if the guy your drafting stops, you plow right into him.

Wogster

If you have a group of cyclists, you need to keep that to a reasonable size, 50-75 riders is too many by several orders of magnitude, you really want to keep to a group of 12 or less, to keep the traffic impact to a minimum. When you get larger groups then it becomes difficult to manage, and your posting is proof positive of this.

Robert Foster

It may depend on what you DMV says about where you ride and when you can "take" the lane.


Bicyclists:

• Must obey all traffic signals and stop signs.
• Are lawfully permitted to ride on certain sections of roadway in rural areas where there is no alternate route.
• Must ride in the same direction as other traffic, not against it.
• Shall ride as near to the right curb or edge of the roadway as practical–not on the sidewalk.
• Are legally allowed to ride in the center of the lane when moving at the same speed as other traffic.
• May move left to pass a parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, animal, avoid debris, or other hazards.
• May choose to ride near the left curb or edge of a one-way street.
• Should ride single file on a busy or narrow street.
• Must make left and right turns in the same way that drivers do, using the same turn lanes. If the bicyclist is traveling straight ahead, he or she should use a through traffic lane rather than ride next to the curb and block traffic making right turns.
• Must signal all their intentions to motorists and bicyclists near them.
• Must wear a helmet if under the age of 18.
• Should carry identification.
• Shall not operate a bicycle on a roadway during darkness unless the bicycle is equipped with:
  • A brake which will enable the operator to make one braked wheel stop on dry, level, clean pavement.

The Bold sections are some of my pet peaves and I often want to stop and slap wrong way riders on the back of the head. I don't do it but they anger me almost as much a nightime Bike Ninjas.

https://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/shr_slow_veh.htm#bike

akohekohe

In FL does the mirror have to be mounted on the bike or is an eyeglass or helmet mirror compliant?

jdon

While on the "mirror" issue, It is a personal preference. It depends on your comfort level and physical ability to look. In my case, a fusion in the C section from an earlier injury restricts movement a little so I can keep better track of what is going on around me with mirrors, even when racing. Underarm checks work well for me but a glance down does the same thing.



Back to the OP, If a riding group is pushing you off the road, I won't hesitate to push back and with the body type of a rugger, I normally win.