Like most, I communicate in person with ears, eyes, voice, gestures, facial expression and posture. Online, again like most, it's all on the screen and in the fingers.

In person and online I, like most, have the ability to ignore the few people who chosen to poison conversation.

I like to argue. That doesn't mean I am determined to be disagreeable, it means that I enjoy the process of having my opinions challenged, and challenging those of others. I was brought up to believe that if you express an opinion you should be prepared to back it up with evidence or, at least, a rational explantion of why it isn't mere prejudice.

In general this tends to cause more grief on internet forums than it does in real life. In part that is a cultural thing - in northern Britain being in-your-face is pretty much normal - and in part it is that tone and nuance is more difficult to express via digital media. I could modify my writing to counteract this, for example by wrapping up my questions or observations in "polite" circumlocutions, but frankly I can't be arsed.

My husband finds me argumentative.

I try to be thoughtful both in person and on the net but I am not always successful. Certain issues frustrate me. I used to be on a forum where questioning someone's reasoning was considered non-supportive. All opinions were valid and entitled to respect. The most common example was alternative medicine which was seen as valid as science based medicine if it made you feel good. Oh for crying out loud, not all opinions are valid. Some are downright idiotic and based on fallacious thinking and superstitious nonsense. I had to back away from posting because I think I was getting a reputation for being a sour puss. I think I would post more there if I had some support, but I clearly did not fit into the culture there.

I did get into a couple of heated arguments on Bike Forums, resulting in a person putting me on their ignore list. :)

Im not sure, because I think people perceive you differently than you do.
I have met 4 forumites over the years, and they were very pleasant meetings and very friendly. They appeared in real life, as they did in their postings.
Im very quiet, laid back and passive, but-- sometimes if I post in A&S, it doesnt convey that way :eek:
I dont know how my postings to other 50+ people appear, but if I offend in any way, it is not intended at all. This is one of the nicer forums on BF. Dont want to get excommunicated !
:beer:

I have enough tenseness in my life - I don't come here to argue, but to, hopefully, relax, enjoy some companionship - like an old-fashioned store where people sit around the porch and just pleasantly chat.

I want to be able to say somethings without being challenged, unless it is way off of the wall - like nuts. I don't want to have to watch every word I type in case someone might challenge an error or whatever.

You sound like someone I'd enjoy riding with.

In fact, we ought to get together for a ride. I got a bike carrier and I live in Middletown. In three miles I can be on Tucker Station Road and off to Da Boonies.

The only problem is I probably can't go riding for three weeks, more if I'm unlucky.

It isn't about challenging an error, or whatever. It's about one's taste in conversation. For me, debate is conversation. I don't much care if you're wrong, or I'm right, or vice versa. I'm often wrong, it's the human condition, it doesn't damage my self-esteem to discover I'm mistaken. Similarly, discovering that you are mistaken doesn't persuade me that you're an idiot. The conversation is about the issue, not about who is cleverer than whom.

But the point is that debating what is, and is not, is what keeps one interested and interesting, imo. Trivial chit-chat about the weather and so forth simply isn't worth the breath - or, in this case, the typing. Clearly, others have different tastes. That is as it should be, we're all different, in our approach to discourse as everything else.

Many years ago, I had a discussion with a friend who was - is - conspicuously brilliant and had married a woman who was massively less intelligent than him. He explained that he got all the intellectual challenge he needed at work, and from his friends, and he didn't want it at home. I was staggered, I can't imagine living with anyone who didn't enjoy giving me an argument about what I think and believe.

Good points. I think that there needs to be a bit of an edge to a forum to keep things lively and interesting.

I used to work with a man who enjoyed arguing about everything. The only way he knew how to converse was in a confrontational, argumentative, in-your-face manner.

No body enjoyed working with him.

Hey neighbor !
Id enjoy that. Are you having physical problems or a work / schedule issue? Whatever, I hope it gets better, not worse !
But yeah, keep me in mind when your schedule allows, and we can do some miles ! Im a little embarrassed(alot) in that
after 3 years, I know nothing about this area, relatively speaking :(
I work at APH creating tests for impaired kids, so when school testing season starts, my schedule gets bad enough that I
cant do anything other than work, 12 hours a day sometimes :cry: That usually starts in about october, though . . .
If ever jupiter aligns with mars and schedules steer the planets, lets spin a few :beer:


Regards,
LM
:)

And, there - we are different.

But, I am massively involved with political activities and arguments in my "other life." I run a couple of listservs where we spend hours debating and formulating strategies for the advancement of status and programs for individuals with disabilities. I do surveys, write programs (just finished an education program for training agency folks who work with families - I can send you a copy if you like) and likely intereact with at least 100 emails daily from a huge variety of folks.

Today, I drove 90 miles to Pueblo to sing with the singing group I started almost 8 years ago - we will do about 40 performances this year.

I have no shortage of intellectual stimulation and opportunities to interact with, and many times, strategize against and with individuals in "my" playing field.

I do all of this on a volunteer basis. No pay.

My playing field just does not happen to be bicycling, that is my relaxing field.

To imply that because I don't happen to want to use this forum for debating is a sign that I am not interesting nor stimulated is . . . well . .

...and in saying this you encapsulate the problem. There was no such implication in what I posted and my immediate reaction is that you are absurdly oversensitive.

But maybe you aren't. Maybe you and I are simply used to different conventions. Isn't that the point?

"But the point is that debating what is, and is not, is what keeps one interested and interesting, imo."

I take that as an implication that you feel those who are not debating are not interested and interesting (like ME). It is more than an implication. It is a restatement of what you said.

From your posts you appear to be one of the Ripple folks I posted about. You seem to enjoy throwing a stone in the puddle just to see the result. That is in contrast to the OP who is looking for peace, light and calm. It is also in contrast to how I perceive Denver Fox. Him I perceive as a passionate person who culturally is more aligned to the classic gentleman than anywhere else. So, in a conversation y'all are doomed to clash.

Maybe adopt a more conventional, repsectful and inquisitive style? For example; your use of he word "absurdly" is so emotionally connoted it cannot help but inflame.

Was I wrong? :(

The difference between forum vs personal communication is the visual cues, but even then what one says and what another hears can be disastrously different things.

Combine this with the tendency of instant communication, where your fingers type your flow of thought without filters, and there is no cooling off period where you go do something else, come back and re-read your response, and do a 2nd and 3rd revision before sending, and you have a natural setup for miscommunication and escalation.

Face to face, with conversation. On this forum, post and duck.

My observation is that you have to hang around the forum for a while to figure out when someone is joking around and when what they've posted what was intended to be serious. I similarly wonder sometimes whether my posts could / would be understood differently than intended. I have to say that I appreciate the 50+ for the general decorum of conversation.

This spring I had the pleasure of "crashing" an annual get together of a group of bike forum members who flew to Phoenix for a few days of cycling together. They all met online and only after several years did they meet in person. Very interesting & diverse group of people from all corners of the US and Canada. The cycling was good too.

Back to point - I find "conversation" on the forum a little more challenging than face to face given the uncertainty of interpretation.

But my object in using the word "absurdly", and then disavowing it by acknowledging that I and Dnvrfox may be coming from very different cultural norms, was to emphasise my point, not to inflame. If people don't get that, I'm sorry, but really there is an obligation on the reader to try to understand.

For instance, Dnvrfox clearly took exception to my suggesting that examining one's own prejudices and challenging those of others was part of what kept one interesting. But that remark wasn't directed at him, it was just an observation about life in general and an attempt to explain why I loke debate and find it not just inoffensive, but invigorating. It's not personal. How could it be? This is an internet forum, I don't know you, I only know your posts.

As for being one of the "ripple folks, I plead guilty, but only to a degree. Most of the time my inquisitorial posts are a genuine attempt to get people to think about the issue. Occasionally, as with dudelsack recently, I just respond in kind and seek to stir the pot. But the latter is rare and specific to individuals whose posts I perceive to be either pretentious or hypocritical.

For me, the subject has been exhausted and exhausting.

From this moment on, I will try very sincerely to not comment on or respond to your posts, as, you have so clearly stated, " . . . acknowledging that I and Dnvrfox may be coming from very different cultural norms . . . . " thereby, in my mind, leaving communication a near impossibility, or requiring so much effort there would be a negative cost/benefit.

Interesting point. One of the things I have often noticed, when visiting the States, is how insular many people are. Thinking differently - certainly expressing non-mainstream opinions - is apparently unwelcome. And if trying to understand a different perspective is too much effort, well....

The highway is lonesome, but the highway is straight
And some things are heavy but they ain't worth the weight
I think you know what I mean
I think you know what I really mean
I think you know what I mean

well in the spirit of where this has gone, I prefer:

The Oxen are slow
But the earth is patient. :D

It's like The States have become one giant Kentucky. I guess we're all rubes now.

The educational system and press in the US are really quite insular. I can't generalize and state the people are though. At least, no more than anywhere else.

While you fancy yourself erudite, you simply come across as a rude, arrogant and abrasive contrarian. Having spent a good portion of my life in England, I can't blame it on culture, I can only suggest it to be your individual default. I think your signature even claimed 40 years of being miserable. It was probably an accurate self assessment.

The clash in culture is only between your approach and what the 50+ forum was intended to be and was for a long time.

Try to be happy, go for a ride and stop looking down your long British nose at other members. To bridge the cultural gap for you, I can only suggest you study the difference between" being arsed" and being an arse.