Slow could be a 28mph or 20mph or 16mph average ride with jumps and slow downs whereas steady is a constant paced effort of 28mph or 20mph or 16mph for the distance.

Two different work-outs yielding two different end results. Guess it depends on desired results.

So far, lol.

I've deleted one of my posts just so the thread will get some continuity.
But the mods have developed a 6th sense of how these things turn so I
hope it doesn't turn non-topical.

"Slow" is a funny (ha, ha) term in cycling, since it's relative, same with "fast." What's slow to one person will have the next person dropping off their wheel. That's why people have started saying "steady," which is kind of the same thing, because the real operative word in that phrase is "long." So it's a pace you can hold for say, 4+ hours without becoming overly tired, meaning you could do it again tomorrow. There's a lot to that. But it's not necessarily what we would all agree is slow. Perhaps the best way to relate is that it would be one's touring effort level. For sure when we come back from a bike tour, we are noticeably stronger yet well rested.

Bill, I obviously have not spent enough time in the forum to get to know you and to know about your suffering for which I am very sympathetic, and pleased you have pulled through.
Similarly, you don't know me who has no tolerance for religious proselytizing, which was how I understood your tag line, the same way I react to the fish on the back of cars.
My family and I have also had serious medical problems, some of which we still confront, but have never felt the urge to use a tag line to tell the world we get through life using our strong will and medical science. Prayer doesn't even figure in it.
Good luck.
Stay well

If you're racing on the track, it's not unusual that gaps appear when the peleton is lined out. If you're in one of the gapped lines, chasing like mad to get back to the leaders, it's quite common to yell at the guy leading the gapped group (and moving a little too slowly) to "swing up!" After all, you don't want to go around the guy, because you have to around the outside, and he just might swing up into you, plus it's more effort to pass a rider on the outside of a turn. By the same token, if there's a one- or two-bike-length gap in front of you, and a rider has just swung off and is coming back down the pace line, you might yell at him to drop "IN!" right in front of you, effectively closing that gap. You have to communicate with other riders, else you get dropped.

On a casual training ride on the road, things aren't quite as intense. If someone at the front is going too slow for your liking, there's usually room to pass him on either side. Usually you'd go opposite the side riders have been swinging off. If it's an intelligent/experienced pace line, this will mean passing him on the leeward side (you always swing off into the wind). You probably don't want to yell at the guy to swing off simply because there might be a car back, passing the line, and he just might swing off without looking... Once you pass him, he'll get the message.

That said, there's nothing wrong with telling the guy in front to "pick it up!" If he can't, he'll prepare to swing off, making sure there's no car coming up.

If it's a club ride, pace lines are expected. You don't have to ask. If some club passes you, it's OK to jump on the back, but I would just draft, allowing guys coming back to slot in ahead of me. If they want you to do some work, the guy will leave that gap open, forcing you to close it. Now you're in the pace line. In Paris-Brest-Paris, the Seattle Randonneurs had their own pace line going, and they didn't want anyone else in the rotation. They had a "ticket puncher" in the back who made sure that non-SR riders did not enter the rotation. I just sat behind the ticket puncher; fine with me, I didn't have to do any work!

Luis

Look on Ebay or Craig's List for the guy's bike. A guy like that should take up knitting.

Probably not that one. If he's got the cojones to latch onto that fast a group in the first place he'll probably be ambitious enough to just ride more and faster miles and choose his groups more carefully. Depends on whether he wants to put in the work or not.

And I agree with lhbernhardt in that passing a leadout in a paceline with strangers like that creates chances for an unpredictable response. Better to stick to paceline protocol and just have the guy pull out. Really in that situation safety might take priority over niceties when guys are tapping their brakes.

I agree with the OP regarding how he/they handled a rider slowing the flow of a pace line.
Trying to get the group to go around the slow rider is difficult, disrupts the flow and potentially unsafe especially with an unknown riders or riders.

Was it being yelled at or speaking loudly to be heard and responded to...I work in a busy paper mill, we all wear ear plugs and it is very noisy...we all speak in loud voices just to be heard...similar in a way to a pace line as you deal with the riders focus on pulling or keeping pace, the wind in your ears, distance of riders from riders, etc.

It is always difficult when there is a new rider or riders in a pace line of riders that know each other or who have become smooth during the ride.
If the group I was riding with was pushing a pace and working smoothly I'd say something to a rider entering the group and slowing the pace during his/her pull...when they pulled out I'd take a moment to suggest when they reach the point where it is their turn to pull they immediately pull out and cycle back until they felt strong enough to maintain the pace...there is no disgrace from doing that and it is done by many when the need arises...if they were *****y or ignored the suggestion I'd drop them in a heart beat and not think of them again...

+1

It was a quick lesson and it only took him a couple of seconds and a bruised ego to
figure-out what is what.
It's up to him to learn, train and grow.
Sometimes, you get your hand held, other times, some old guy yells at you. ;)

S

A well organized club's paceline is a learning experience for everyone.
Getting the word to "pull through" or "pull off" in a clear positive tone is a teaching moment for both riders.

-Bandera

Lol

Well said :thumb:

That really does not sound like a group or club ride, it sounds too much like a competitive race by description of the pace line and pulling etc. If I would have been yelled at to pull off, I would have ignored it and said pass me if you want to. I get passed all the time while riding solo and sometimes I pass others. If I ride with real friends, we stay together. Its usually not a matter of how much faster one is than another. Its a matter of what type of equipment you are running. I once tried a racing road bike and my speed doubled as compared to my regular road bike. I never understood club rides, or should I say "club races" until I joined one and felt out of place when all that showed up were racing bikes. I never saw hide nor hair of any of them the rest of the way and continued on by myself.

I agree. He learned an extremely valuable lesson, and it is a situation he will not allow himself to fall into again. You were easy on him. I don't think I would have been.

That "joiner" created a dangerous situation for everyone behind him. The OP already mentioned the wheel overlap. Someone in a paceline cannot slow down without signaling those behind. I suspect that this one person, who joined the paceline mid-ride, rotated to the lead, then slowed down has probably never ridden in a fast paceline before. That's downright dangerous, for everyone!

We do not know how much verbal communication there was between him and the others. If he had an opportunity to ask if it was okay to latch on, that he was inexperienced in paceline riding, but would it be okay to join in anyway . . . then the others would be aware of his limits/experience, and would keep a close eye on him.

Getting passed, or passing others while riding solo is a whole different ballgame than riding in a close paceline and have very little to do with each other, besides being on bicycles going in the same direction.

Pacelines in the clubs that I rode with changed character as the season progressed.
What started as a "sing-along" pace while base miles were accumulated got progressively more intense as District Championships loomed.

It's up to the "owners" of the ride to provide the information about it's character & purpose. If it's a training race say so and be prepared to explain what that means. Developing safe efficient paceline technique takes practice and requires absorbing the etiquette, skills, reactions and dynamics of a group working together. It's not for everyone, and there is always a certain amount of good natured verbal exchange.

edit: We all have skills to hone and things to learn, unless you are an experienced paceline rider well integrated into a particular group it's best to keep one's mouth shut and ears open.

-Bandera

Humm, interesting info guys, I guess I never knew how this type of riding was done. I didn't know it was an activity with rules to follow like a ball game. I have never seen any of that type of riding around here. We have several charity rides and new events coming up every year but you can "run what you brung". You don't need a racing bike. So correct me if I'm wrong, all participants would need very similar racing bikes of equal performance and weight etc in order to participate successfully in such an activity.??

Cycling as a competitive sport on the road is well over a century old, the peloton is where it lives.
Riding a paceline is integral to peloton dynamics whether it's a few teammates out for conversational early season base miles or the lead out to the high speed sprint finish in a sanctioned road race.

Paceline riding when done properly is a highly disciplined co-operative effort demanding skill, technique and experience. In my day these were provided by nationally sanctioned cycle racing clubs that held regular club rides to hone those skills with structure and purpose.
Good clubs foster skills at all levels. "New rider" rides were available to ease entry to the etiquette and complex dynamics of the paceline as well as full-on training races for the experienced teammates to do their thing.

Great fun, but not for the un-committed: membership, and proper safe equipment was required.

-Bandera

Bicycling survey in Bicycling Magazine I got today

Do you ride solo? 80%

Both - 11%

"Pack Animal" - 9%

Don't get confused or misled by all the hype on pace lines, etc.

Interesting thread and rebuttal: http://michaelbarry.ca/2011/11/the-group-ride-2/

I borrowed this from a 41 zombie thread.

My take is that anyone could do the ride on any bike and at any pace they liked. But to ride in that particular group on that ride, you would need to maintain the group's pace and follow the group's norms.

Thankfully.

I have to admit that the last competitive race I rode was 46 years ago, (placed third), and have been a recreational rider since. But, I have had the opportunity in the past year to ride in our club paceline. While on their Saturday Morning Ride. After a five-mile warm up, the group splits into three ability category and goes on separate routes, meeting back at one location for the ride back to the shop.

Until this past year, I have avoided riding in pacelines because I was inexperienced in doing so, and I recognized the danger of riding so fast in so very close proximity to each other. I was a danger! And I knew it. It is a dangerous way to ride, just watch any TdF TTT. At least one team goes down every year. I guess the older I become, and experience how much longer it takes to heal from an injury, I have become much more safety conscious.

But . . . riding as part of a well-organized, smooth functioning paceline is one of the most exhilarating experiences one can have on a bicycle! It just feels so right and good! The thrill eclipses even a high-speed descent with gentle curves.

There are no "rules", but there is tradition and an expectation that other members of a paceline know how to ride safely and efficiently. On most rides over twenty miles or so and less than a century, I can expect to easily average fifteen miles per hour for the duration of the ride. I'm not really pushing myself and am taking time, while riding, to "smell the roses". If I really wanted to push it, I can probably average close to 17-18 mph for a ride duration below about 30-35 miles. But, I'd be pretty bushed afterward.

Paceline, by contrast, can easily maintain speeds between 25-28 mph, sometimes faster, for the same type of ride. Speed is dangerous! We had this brought home to us last week with Paul Walker's death. Another example is the numerous NASCAR crashes. Watch how they draft closely, (which is what a paceline does).

If the opportunity presents itself where I can be part of a paceline, I do several things. I tell them that I am not very experienced in paceline riding and that I would be a hazard to the other members. If they say it is okay to join anyway, then I do, but they will also know to keep an eye on me. (I'm sure I'm still scared because I'll usually keep about twenty-four inches or a yard between the back tire of the person ahead of me and my front wheel.) I am always told that when I rotate to the front of the line, to not accelerate, but hold the same speed; to keep it up as long as I feel able to do so; then swing out and drift back to the end of the line.

Again, there are no "rules", but the expectation that one knows how to ride in the line.

Bandera's advice is spot on . . . shut up and observe/listen, then emulate.

Any type of bicycle can be part of a paceline. The important factor is being able to ride at the pace of everyone else. If everybody is on a beach cruiser, then it is just a slower speed paceline. You just want to make sure that when you get to the front, that you maintain the same speed as you rode while further back. Otherwise, you'll have several bodies and bikes all over you on the ground and some very pissed people.

- - - - -

A funny story about the last time I rode in a paceline. I hadn't ridden with the Saturday Morning club ride for several months and woke up early enough to do so one day. We did our traditional warm-up ride, then split into groups. Up to then, they only had two groups, the fast guys, and the not so fast guys/girls.

The very first time I rode with the club, I went on with the fast guys. I fully expected to be dropped . . . but not within the first quarter mile! I haven't ridden with the fast groups since, but always with the intermediate, slower group.

So, when we were, at the split point. The ride leader was explain the routes, but with forty something riders, and stopping in the street at a stop sign, it was next to impossible to hear what he was saying. I knew the fast guys would go "that" direction, so I went with the others.

On our split group, the fast guys took off, leaving the rest of us behind. I chased after them and hooked on is short order and we developed a little pace line of five riders. I rotated through once, back to the end, and eventually back to the front again. I was feeling pretty good, the road was on a 0.5 or 1.0% down grade, so I just motored on, pulling extra time.

I finally decided to swing off, but took a quick look back to see if it was safe to do so. To my great surprise, the rest of the paceline was more than a half mile behind me! What the???? So, I just put my head down and motored on, setting some personal bests and even got into the top-10 on a Strava segment.

Back at the mid-ride meet up point, I discovered that there were now three groups, and that I had joined the beginner group! The intermediate group went off with the advanced group, but made a right turn a mile up the road while the advanced riders continued on straight.

Oh well, I had a good ride. It felt good! Speed is fun, too much speed is dangerous.

Ezekiel 25:17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

volosong

Inconceivable :lol:

?

:lol:

Cool

By far most of the very little paceline riding that I've done was in centuries where I just joined in uninvited. But I did OK while I was there because I could keep the pace and my bike handling was good enough I guess.

I did burn out keeping pace with a couple early in centuries though and struggled to finish after pulling out after my last pulls. I never asked for a freebie and just wanted to pull my weight as thanks for being able to participate.

I saw some road rash, mad riders and heard some sad stories at the end of centuries though when other pacelines crashed out from somebody they were blaming for it, even in my first century, so I was always aware of the danger.

Once I was in a paceline (that was probably a little too fast for me in the long haul) and we were going around a long lefthand curve in the road. I was thinking about my Univega's low Bottom Bracket and my 175 crankarms alright but I kept pedaling through because I didn't want to cause any gaps in the line. So I see a pedal cap passing me on the left and thought: Some silly fool almost crashed the line out. I did start tilting my bike the opposite direction when pedaling with my left after that but didn't realize it was my pedal cap until I finished the century and went to put my bike in the back of my pickup. :lol:

After all the complaining about bible quotes I just thought I'd bring the best fake bible quote ever to the table.

I kind of wondered if you were serious ;)

Kinda thought that but since I'm not Book literate a smilie would have helped. :D :thumb:

I sure hope you all know where that quote comes from.