Long story short I moved my cleats all the way forward and I think I could go pro this year

Before I did this I was feeling like poop, I was cramping a lot feet and legs were even hurting, I thought I might need different shoes, different bike, different sport etc.

Now I feel reinvented. Not only are all issues seemingly disappeared, in addition I can ride further with almost no fatigue. Feel like getting more out of every pedal pedal stroke which is also smoother. Ride harder. Climb easier. Easier to ride in the drops. Feeling more flexible, loose, and relaxed. Significantly less saddle discomfort. Probably good for 1-2 mph avg speed gain.

I did have to make adjustements to the saddle and bars to match. Cleats were previously slammed all the way back.
\NOTE:cleats were moved forward a while back but it really took moving the seat back to reap the benefits.

How I got so messed up on fit is a long story filled with multiple advice and fits and stuck in ways of thinking. Ultimately I just decided to go riding with the intent purpose of forgetting everything I know and just going by pure feel. I devoted entire rides over the span of a few weeks listening to the body and making a ton of adjustments and simply trying different things. NOTE: I already had a shorter stem on the bike which is kind of a big deal.

I just moved mine BACK, I dunno how exactly I got them where they were, my feet have shrunk quite a bit due to weight loss, but my shoes are not LOOSE, but now I have the cleat pretty centered on the ball of my foot. I decided to have a look at the setup and was amazed at how far it was from where I "thought" I was.

I did notice my left foot wanting to turn big toe in as I pedaled so my thoughts were to move my feet out a bit.

My fitting is all my own, never had the cash really to have one professionally done.

I have the exact opposite experience. I moved my shimano spd cleats all the way back and finally found relief for knee pain. I have large feet - size 14 US - so that may have something to do with it.

I am glad you all figured it out, everyone is different. I did not have knee pain myself. I did move my cleats for maximum q-factor which seemed to help toe- in/out, a lesson learned from riding a wide fatbike crank. I did give up on the whole cleat to ball of foot thing since there is not a real precise way to measure it and it is a bit affected by your body position on the bike.

Cheers - Nick "cleatus" Bain.

All the way forward.... all the back. I would guess the odds are they belong somewhere between those two different settings for you.

I am certainly no bicycle fitting expert. But in my half century [PLUS] of cycling... the foot has always been placed (more or less) with the ball of the foot over the spindle of the pedal. I believe that procedure stems from the fact that the ball of the foot is universally accepted and the "natural" place for pressure when walking and/or running.

There are a ton of fitting guides/videos on the Internet.... Youtube is the place that first comes to mind.

Cleats too far forward can result in pain and foot cramps on long rides. Because you are effectively standing on tip toe. This is something I notice after about 70 miles.

This is the perfect example of a stuck way of thinking. Note that I did not state whether or not I was ball over spindle so for all you or I know I could be there at the moment. I say that I do not know because there is not a precise way to measure this metric since the foot is inside a shoe. It could be close but still off. It is also affected by your riding position which dictates where you are applying the forces. So in this case I went with feel and results and so far so good. I will report back with an update in the near future. Again every rider is different and so are shoes. I am not advocating that everyone needs to have their cleats slammed forward, just simply that going by feel instead of getting confused by what everyone else says.

Well, are ya now?

I've been adjusting my cleats lately based on what feels best/causes the least pain over long distances, and it appears my cleats are just a little behind the heads of the first metatarsal bones, easily felt through the shoe as the bump on the side of your foot. Feels good man.

My cleats are all the way back. When they were at mid-point the calves tended to cramp. Fitting a bike is like predicting the weather - too many variables.

That was part of my thought in having them back all the way that it would reduce calf stress, but it seemed to make it worse for me I think because it reduced my ability to use it and flex it and therefore allowing it go stiff and eventually cramp. I was getting some pain, not cramping but close to it until I moved the seat back. Everyons different I can't seem to stress that enough :-)

I spent decades working closely with people in Anthropometry. I don't believe you're factually correct. Although there can be some great variances in the human "figure".... things like foot structure can be very predictable.

That's because you ride toe-down. Drop your heel and pedal with your heel cups. You'd probably have to lower your saddle a little. Pedaling with your heels takes a lot of stress out of your legs and feet because then your feet and lower legs are effectively relaxed. Your calf will still do what's necessary without your telling it what to do, but it won't have to do as much.

And I went from suffering in group rides to dominating that's a fact Jack! So you keep on believing whatever you want.

[I am] Glad to read that your performance is improving!

I don't know how my own "belief system" could have any effect on your cycling... but thank you for your permission... for me to retain my beliefs.

I sincerely hope that... by whatever means... you have found the correct bicycle setup. OR that the settings you've selected will do you no harm. Injury/recovery time.... is both a pain... and a waste of valuable training time. I wish you the best of luck!

There's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing at work, though, isn't there? Like, if your cleats are too far forward, you'll need to pedal with your toes down in order to keep your feet balanced and avoid calf strain when applying power. I would expect that if this were the case, then pedalling would still be a little awkward after dropping the heels and saddle, unless the rider has really strong calves.

Never tried with the cleats all the way forward. I position my cleats so that the ball of my big toe is over the pedal spindle. That's very easy to do. That said, the idea of pedaling heels down is to relax the calf and to get the tibia closer to the pedal spindle. I suspect it would work better than toes down with the cleats slammed forward, but would not be quite as comfortable as with the cleats in the usual position. My guess is that the OP pedals heels down. ??? Or perhaps "relaxed calf" is a better way of putting it. Most folks only "ankle" for short periods when they want extra power, but the ability to do so is a benefit of relaxed calf pedaling.

I do all the way back.
I have heard of custom shoes or drilling to get cleats in the middle of the sole too.

From the gist of the dozens (hundreds?) of fit articles and videos I have ingested, cleats towards the rear will have you using your larger glute and hamstring muscles more.
If your cleats have been back, maybe you have overused those muscles and underused quads, and moving fwd has you using quads now, resulting in (perhaps temporary) speed gains.

I would postulate that cleats back, seat back relative to BB would be better for long distance and cleats fwd seat fwd would be better for shorter higher speed rides. ymmv.

I wonder if the increase in performance was not directly from moving the cleats forward, but rather the overall change in positioning. (Cleat changes can affect seat height and fore aft.) Maybe moving the cleats -- and whatever other changes you made -- just resulted in a better overall bike fit.

Trying a lower saddle now, thanks!

I'm wondering if this cleat-forward situation more likely applies to a smaller-footed person. My toes start to become numb when the cleats are too far forward.

That's my suspicion as well.

Maybe all cleat mounts/openings/whatever are manufactured with the same distance from the front of the shoe regardless of shoe size as opposed to some sort of proportional length?

I'll tell you what made an unusual difference for me. I found that I was more willing to experiment with cleat positions while using a T-Handle hex key. Using an L-shaped key was more of a pain for me.

I do now have my cleats mounted further back than I had originally at what I had then considered to be some sort of middle position on my shoes.

This talk of "belief systems" does irk me though. This is supposed to be about comfort and not theology.

Another thing that works super good for numb or cramping feet during a ride: loosen your shoes! It's amazing how few people know this.