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Bike fitting for a custom titanium

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Bike fitting for a custom titanium

Old 01-16-20, 12:03 PM
  #1  
Adelmur
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Bike fitting for a custom titanium

Hello,

I have been cycling for over thirty years mainly mountain biking and biking.
I ride my work bike a lot. It's a completely modified Urban focus.
Only the frame is original !
Over time I completely adapted it to my dimensions but it has a cross country MTB cockpit.
I have always loved building my own bikes. I feel comfortable on this bike.
It is comfortable, handy and I can ride for long periods of time. 3 hours and more.
I easily go out for more than 90 km rides. I would like to get a road bike.
For my fortieth birthday, my wife decided to offer me a road bike with a custom titanium frame.
I'm looking to have a multi-purpose, high-performance and reliable bike built that I could keep for several years.
If I have always cycled, I have never had a road bike and I have no reference to define my ideal bike geometry. I would like to do a postural study to be sure of being comfortable and to define the dimensions of the frame of my future bike.

I am an industrial designer and I was trained in ergonomic study.
In my opinion, the objective of a postural study is to define the position that offers the best compromise between comfort and performance for a given period of time.
My understanding of postural study for a bicycle is to define the position of a human body in movement, effort and support.
There are several points of support in space.
To define the dimensions of a custom-made bicycle frame, these coordinates must be crossed in space with:

- The technical constraints of a bicycle (wheel arches, head tube angle and so on.
- The characteristics that we want to give to the bike and which have an impact on the geometry of the frame
- The dimensions of the equipment - length of cranks, saddle, seatpost, stem, dimensions of the fork etc.)

If it is easier to start from an existing bike geometry, it is possible to define the ideal dimensions for a cyclist just starting from his feelings.

There is a store in my area which offers postural studies (the retul system) but do not want to carry out the study without an existing bike to integrate the parameters.
I could pick a bike geometry on the frame builder website. and give them to the bike fitter.
I fell a bit stuck.
I would have liked to have your point of view and to know how I could solve this problem in order to be able to build my bike while being sure of the dimensions
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Old 01-16-20, 12:37 PM
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The most sophisticated fitting system in my experience is based on the “Guru” machine, which can replicate any combination of body requirements and adjust and tweak them as you're pedaling. The system is designed for determining the specs for a custom bike. Here’s a link:

The Experience
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Old 01-16-20, 01:19 PM
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Can you take your mtb with you to the retul system shop?

Can you give us some idea about your size? Just basics like your weight, height, cycling inseam, torso size in relation to your leg length, if you have average abdominal strength if like a lower racing position or a more upright position and if you have any chronic injuries?

Talking about bike fit is pretty fun. Working it out in the real world (instead of an internet forum) is even more fun. For your titanium road bike do you have any sense on if you want a traditional horizontal top tube road frame or if you want sloping top tube geometry?
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Old 01-16-20, 01:20 PM
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Thank you for your answer. the GURU machine is not available in france. but the retul looks very similar.

Last edited by Adelmur; 01-16-20 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 01-16-20, 01:31 PM
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I am 1.95 cm for around 100kg.
No chronik injuries exept for my right knee.
I do 100 abs and pushups every mornig.
I feel I am on an up right position If I need to speed up I tend to lower my chest and flex my arms (I can easily go down)

Handlebar width 65 cm
Top tube lenght 62 cm
Distance pedal to saddle fully extended 97 cm.
I have an adamo time trial saddle because I feel more confortable on it. (blunted nose) TILT 0°

I know what sloping mean for MTB but a bit less for Road.
here are the tech specs I am looking for my bike build.

Technical SPECS
1 ⅛” - 1 ¼” integrated tapered IS42/28.6 | 47/33
Ovalized top tube
142 12 true axle
Seat post 31.6”
Internal cable routing
Flat mount 140/160 disc brake
1X11 or 1X12 drive train

Not sure I need an advice
40 mm dia tubes
Downtube and seat tube teardrop cross sections ??

Let me know if you want some more dimensions

Last edited by Adelmur; 01-16-20 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 01-16-20, 02:51 PM
  #6  
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I have also started some technical sketches.
This allow me to set some fixed dimensions such as fork, wheels, BB.
Then I will only have to set my bike fitting and the frame geometry will auto adapt
It is based on a 3T STRADA but I had to adapt the geometry to an other fork.
I like the compact look and the very short chain stay.
Plus I do think the rear triangle will give some extra comfort with the titanium flexibility.
I will post it as soon as I have passed the 10 th post restriction
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Old 01-16-20, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Adelmur View Post
I am 1.95 cm for around 100kg.
No chronik injuries exept for my right knee.
I do 100 abs and pushups every mornig.
I feel I am on an up right position If I need to speed up I tend to lower my chest and flex my arms (I can easily go down)

Handlebar width 65 cm
Top tube lenght 62 cm
Distance pedal to saddle fully extended 97 cm.
I have an adamo time trial saddle because I feel more confortable on it. (blunted nose) TILT 0°

I know what sloping mean for MTB but a bit less for Road.
here are the tech specs I am looking for my bike build.

Technical SPECS
1 ⅛” - 1 ¼” integrated tapered IS42/28.6 | 47/33
Ovalized top tube
142 12 true axle
Seat post 31.6”
Internal cable routing
Flat mount 140/160 disc brake
1X11 or 1X12 drive train

Not sure I need an advice
40 mm dia tubes
Downtube and seat tube teardrop cross sections ??

Let me know if you want some more dimensions
Is there a particular titanium builder or brand that you are considering?
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Old 01-17-20, 01:22 AM
  #8  
Adelmur
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Is there a particular titanium builder or brand that you are considering?
I am considering
Xi'an,Waltly and oraeng
yes I know... A very few people know those brands and other will criticize them. But the builder is not the point here.
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Old 01-17-20, 02:19 AM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by Adelmur View Post
I am 1.95 cm for around 100kg.
Ok, so you're pretty tall.

195cm = 76.7" or about 6'5"
100kg = 220 lbs.

For classic frame dimensions, you're probably looking at somewhere around 60cm to 66cm.

You haven't listed a location, but I'd hunt for a used road bike or cyclocross bike (or bare frame) as close to what you're wanting (aluminum?), or steel if you wish for a horizontal top tube. You can build it up with your target component group. And, then see how you like it. Do a few adjustments as you go until it is comfortable.

Put a few hundred, or a few thousand miles on your sample bike.

You can adjust:
  • Seat height.
  • Seat forward/back
  • Stem Height
  • Stem Length
  • Crank Length (180mm?)
Once you are completely happy, talk to your bike builder.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:46 AM
  #10  
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Bike dimensions

So far, I came with this bike dimensions. what is your opinion ?
STACK 618 mm
REACH 406 mm
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE 528 mm
SEAT TUBE LENGHT 570 mm
HEAD TUBE LENGHT 195
HEAD ANGLE 72.5°
SEAT ANGLE 72.5°
BB DROP 69
FORK RAKE 45mm
CHAIN STAY LENGHT 405 mm
STAND OVER 880 mm
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Old 01-28-20, 09:52 AM
  #11  
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I originaly wanted to go with those dimensions.
Basicallly, I took a few carbon and titanium bikes dimensions. I made some kind median sizing.
Of course it doesn't fit exactly due to various factor. fork angles etc...
But I changed in my cad software and adapting with the fork dimensions.

STACK 596 mm
REACH 403 mm
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE 592 mm
SEAT TUBE LENGHT 569 mm
HEAD TUBE LENGHT 195
HEAD ANGLE 73°
SEAT ANGLE 72.5°
BB DROP 69
FORK RAKE 45mm
CHAIN STAY LENGHT 412 mm
STAND OVER 823 mm
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Old 01-28-20, 09:56 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by Adelmur View Post
REACH 406 mm
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE 528 mm
If you are 6'-5" that seems awful short. I'm 5'-7" and ride 380 reach with 540mm ETT with a 120mm stem.
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Old 01-28-20, 10:12 AM
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My region is fairly flat by the sea. We have a lot of cycle paths.
I will use the bike a lot in town.
Here are my doubts
EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE
Should I lengthen my effective top tube (and reach) ?
I plan to put a 110 mm stem

DIRECTION ANGLE
My understanding of the steering angle is that the more the angle is closed, the more stable the bike is at high speed. a more open angle means more responsive.

SEAT ANGLE
On most of the bikes I have seen, the angle of the seat tube is equal to or slightly less than that of the steering angle.
What insidance on the geometry of the bike? more closed means further back and a more raised position. this also has an impact on the chain line. Do you have an opinion on the subject ?

CHAIN LINE
I like the idea of a very short chain line to be able to accommodate the rear wheel in the seat tube and give it a more aero line.
I also like a short chain line for more responsiveness. but are there any other parameters to consider?
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Old 01-28-20, 10:14 AM
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This is the last post before I can post photos and shows you a little bit more about the project..
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Old 01-28-20, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
If you are 6'-5" that seems awful short. I'm 5'-7" and ride 380 reach with 540mm ETT with a 120mm stem.
I am 1.92 m I am not sure about the convertion 6,299213 feet ?
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Old 01-28-20, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
If you are 6'-5" that seems awful short. I'm 5'-7" and ride 380 reach with 540mm ETT with a 120mm stem.
you are right !
And I am soo stupid !! I have 601 mm on my bike ...
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Old 01-28-20, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Adelmur View Post
I am 1.92 m I am not sure about the convertion 6,299213 feet ?
I'm 1.70 m
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Old 01-28-20, 11:56 AM
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Here are a few adjustments based on dimensions took from my bike
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Old 01-28-20, 08:50 PM
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The thing is, it really doesn't matter all that much what your experience has been or your current machine is. The issue of human ergonomics w/r to road cycling has been under development for ~130 years using billions of test subjects. It's been pretty well studied. That said, there is also the issue of human conditioning for road cycling. It's like the fairy tale giant's bed: if their feet hang over, cut them off, if they're too short, stretch them. IOW if your current conditioning, flexibility, and reflexes don't match optimal road cycling ergonomic requirements, you don't modify the bicycle, you modify yourself. That way, after a few months of cycling you find that you have attained cycling nirvana, a perfect body on a perfect machine. Just like a new pair of skis, a proper bike teaches you to ride. You can't teach the bike.

So what you do is to go to the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...ulatorBike.jsp
and have someone help you take your dimensions. The calculator will give you 3 choices for the type of fit you want. You can run the three suggested fit styles and look at their differences.
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Old 01-29-20, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The thing is, it really doesn't matter all that much what your experience has been or your current machine is. The issue of human ergonomics w/r to road cycling has been under development for ~130 years using billions of test subjects. It's been pretty well studied. That said, there is also the issue of human conditioning for road cycling. It's like the fairy tale giant's bed: if their feet hang over, cut them off, if they're too short, stretch them. IOW if your current conditioning, flexibility, and reflexes don't match optimal road cycling ergonomic requirements, you don't modify the bicycle, you modify yourself. That way, after a few months of cycling you find that you have attained cycling nirvana, a perfect body on a perfect machine. Just like a new pair of skis, a proper bike teaches you to ride. You can't teach the bike.

So what you do is to go to the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...ulatorBike.jsp
and have someone help you take your dimensions. The calculator will give you 3 choices for the type of fit you want. You can run the three suggested fit styles and look at their differences.
Thanks for your return,
I understand the need to adapt my ergonomics to my new machine. This is why I launched this post to get your point of view.
I think there are lots of beliefs and supperstitions in the dimensions of a bicycle and in postural studies.
The bike fit calculator also gives three variable choices.
understand that there are several schools there are several schools.
I also think that aerodynamics and other factors are a reality.

As a point of comparison,
I have also been surfing for over thirty years.
You have to understand that a surfboard is an object that takes into account hydrodinamism. water due to the fact that it does not compress has a much greater impact than air in the form factor.
The mechanics of fluids is a very studied subject.

A surfboard is an individual response taking into account several factors. A person's surfing style, his physical condition, his physiognomy level and also the wave conditions encountered.
A good surfboard shaper that can interpret all of this. some are living legends.
My surfing level has not changed for 20 years. my physical condition is almost the same and I surf the same type of conditions.
Unlike the bike, the materials have remained the same (polyurethane fiberglass foam)
Yet my boards have nothing to do with what I surfed 15 years ago, 10 years and 5 years ago.
The shape of surfboards in general has evolved enormously.




What I hear with this example is that there are also fashions in bike geometries and that there has been a lot of marketing spent by brands in the bicycle business to suggest that bike is as technological as a space program from nasa and that ergonomic studies are at the cutting edge of technology.
As a designer, I integrated ergonomic studies into my curriculum.
The body is a soft matter with hard stuff inside maintained by elastic stuff .. in short, it is variable and evolutive ...
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Last edited by Adelmur; 01-29-20 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 01-29-20, 05:34 AM
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​I did the fit calculator.
FYO this Is what I have measured on my body
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--> Inseam : 92 cm
Trunk :69 cm
Forearm :32 cm
Arm :68 cm
Thigh :66 cm
Lower :58 cm
Sternal notch :164 cm
Total length :192,5 cm

This gives you good advices
On the eddy set-up.. (I am not a racy guy)
- It gives me a 54 - 54.5 top tube lenght. Wich I find very short most bike shop told me around 60/61 (mine is actually 61)
- Distance BB/sadle 80 wich is the same as mine
- Stem lenght 110 mm

So far so good.. but I have a few issues and questions with the other dimensions
It gives me a 9.8 - 10.2 cm saddle set back. This could Explain the - 6 cm Shorter top tube... I actually have a 2.5cm set back on my seat tube.
The measurement is given from the tip of the saddle..

- What happens if you have a blunted time trial saddle because you find it more confortable where you need to be ?
- Sould it be from a more reliable contact point such as your pubic rami ? or at least the center of your seat post tube ?
- What about cranck lenght ? (mine is 175mm)
- The saddle to handlebar drop ? I can't measure it accurately)
- The saddle tilt ? (mine is actualy 0°)
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Old 01-29-20, 08:11 AM
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I think it would be hard to determine saddle setback without riding the bike. Your balance point is going to be determined by your body composition, flexibility and riding style. I'm unaware of any formulas that will be able to determine that accurately. I think the formula above is kind of like KOPs....it's a starting point not the end result.
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Old 01-29-20, 10:38 AM
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Here is some pictures from the bike manufaturer of what would be a very similar end product.
I will go with
- Sram force 1 1X11 disc group set
- Zipp 454 NSW Carbon
- ENVE carbon stem 110 mm
- ENVE aero handelbar (440 wide)



Last edited by Adelmur; 01-29-20 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 01-29-20, 01:38 PM
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The calculator indicates that you have a fairly short upper body and arms compared with leg length. Saddle goes up and down, so one really sizes bikes by the top tube length. If I were you, I'd go to a good bike shop and look at bikes with an effective 54 cm TT length. Get the bike shop to adjust saddle fore-and-aft position and height so that you have both KOPS and proper saddle height. Sit on the bike, hands on hoods, straighten your back, and see if your upper arms make about a 90° angle with your torso. If so, that's your size. If they can't even get close with saddle height or arm angle, maybe you do need a custom bike. OTOH, if it's close, maybe you should just buy a bike. In that case, take a test ride on a candidate that meets your cost expectations. Modern carbon bikes are pretty nice.

Don't worry about saddle to bar drop. That can be adjusted when a stock bike is built up. Most folks like something on the order of 3" drop, though some endurance riders use zero drop. If you start with an endurance bike model, it'll come out with less drop than a race bike.

I ride with one person who still has a Ti bike. He bought it 20 years ago. All the other Ti bikes ordered 20 years ago broke. Everyone else I know rides carbon - mine is a '99, still perfect.

You want the longest cranks they'll put on the bike, whatever you buy. Your optimal length is something on the order of 200mm.
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Old 01-30-20, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The calculator indicates that you have a fairly short upper body and arms compared with leg length. Saddle goes up and down, so one really sizes bikes by the top tube length. If I were you, I'd go to a good bike shop and look at bikes with an effective 54 cm TT length. Get the bike shop to adjust saddle fore-and-aft position and height so that you have both KOPS and proper saddle height. Sit on the bike, hands on hoods, straighten your back, and see if your upper arms make about a 90° angle with your torso. If so, that's your size. If they can't even get close with saddle height or arm angle, maybe you do need a custom bike. OTOH, if it's close, maybe you should just buy a bike. In that case, take a test ride on a candidate that meets your cost expectations. Modern carbon bikes are pretty nice.

Don't worry about saddle to bar drop. That can be adjusted when a stock bike is built up. Most folks like something on the order of 3" drop, though some endurance riders use zero drop. If you start with an endurance bike model, it'll come out with less drop than a race bike.

I ride with one person who still has a Ti bike. He bought it 20 years ago. All the other Ti bikes ordered 20 years ago broke. Everyone else I know rides carbon - mine is a '99, still perfect.

You want the longest cranks they'll put on the bike, whatever you buy. Your optimal length is something on the order of 200mm.
Thank you. I will try to go to a bike shop this weekend. Maybe try to rent one.
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