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Moisture's Unique Frame Fit

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Moisture's Unique Frame Fit

Old 01-27-21, 08:57 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
Except for the case with cubewheels, I dont judge anyone on here. Him basing his immovable opinion on bike fit with whatever little resources he has is unreasonable, yet i still tried to keep my judgment to a minimum, at least until I see his setup in action. I would urge you to follow the same principle.

You dismiss or ignore the things I say and tell me I have problems when I have none.

Don't you think you're the one who is immovable in opinion?
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Old 01-27-21, 09:05 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
No, if we are taking about 1.5 ghours straight or more butt gets sore... not sure how i can fix that
Saddle soreness is one of the symptoms of having too high saddle and/or insufficient saddle support (you may need wider saddle for your very upright posture). In your picture, it does seem your saddle is too high.

I ride up to 6 hours, no padding on my shorts and I never get a sore butt.
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Old 01-27-21, 09:15 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Saddle soreness is one of the symptoms of having too high saddle and/or insufficient saddle support (you may need wider saddle for your very upright posture). In your picture, it does seem your saddle is too high.

I ride up to 6 hours, no padding on my shorts and I never get a sore butt.
I think my current saddle is a good width for me.

It may look like it in the photos, perhaps my seat is a little high to compensate for 175mm cranks arms instead of closer to 185-190 like I need.

But with my feet inside the strap in pedals, id say I'm actually just shy of optimal leg extension (a little more than just a slight bend in the knee)

With the way i ride, I guess saddle sorness on long rides is inevitable.

How would you guys suggest I go about getting a slightly more stretched out position on a future bike build? When I was using a 60mm stem instead of my current 40mm I didn't like it. So by playing around with chainstay, top tube and reach angles, i should be able to lower my stem a little and get more streamlined. Right?
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Old 01-27-21, 09:16 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
If anyone is interested,
(I am sort of interested. It's like seeing a car wreck, or a house on fire.)

- This fit is extremely effective from a power transfer and handling perspective (Incorrect) while still being very comfortable. But aerodynamics obviously suffers somewhat. (Correct)

In the future, the two main things I'd like to address with my current fit would be the height of the stem and the crank arms. I want longer than 175mm for my inseam. This will help me sit lower in the bike. (Incorrect) I also want to figure out a way to comfortably lower the stem a little and get slightly more streamlined without getting an even shorter stem. But for now, with the exception of the crank arm length, I've achieved a perfect fit for myself. (Grossly incorrect)

-As for frame geometry itself, id prefer 10mm shorter chain stays (425mm), 10mm longer top tube (590mm) to bias my weight slightly more rearward toward a more nimble rear triangle while having some more space to stretch out.

Otherwise, i can push this bike hard through corners and obstacles with a perfect balance between front tire grip/ rear tire slide and the ability to effectively contr rear axle skidding with the inside of my leg against either side of the saddle. Also, the ride is super comfortable even over the worst bumps.
(I've asked this before when you are carrying on about how "perfect" your bike is, and I will ask again: what is your frame of reference? How many other bikes have you ridden? What bikes have you ridden? How did they differ from this one?)
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Old 01-27-21, 09:23 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
(I've asked this before when you are carrying on about how "perfect" your bike is, and I will ask again: what is your frame of reference? How many other bikes have you ridden? What bikes have you ridden? How did they differ from this one?)
Not enough experience with other bikes to have any half decent baseline.

Youre right, the larger crank arms won't help you sit lower. Your legs will just move in a full circle an extra x mm more in every direction.

I am basing my fit in the bike mostly based on the bikes handling when pushing the tires to the limit of adhesion. Right now I get a balanced response front/rear and the bike will eagerly yet controllably oversteer in the right circumstances.

In terms of power trasnfer, while I can definrtly put out some serious power on this bike, its too upright from an "optimal" perspective. But like I've said before, I don't want to be leaning forward (or backwards) any differently than I am in this photo.

While I dont think my Norco is a "bad" fit, something about it is just shy of being perfect (ie. Streamlined but with the balance im looking for)
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Old 01-27-21, 09:28 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
Not enough experience with other bikes to have any half decent baseline.

Youre right, the larger crank arms won't help you sit lower. Your legs will just move in a full circle an extra x mm more in every direction.

I am basing my fit in the bike mostly based on the bikes handling when pushing the tires to the limit of adhesion. Right now I get a balanced response front/rear and the bike will eagerly yet controllably oversteer in the right circumstances.

In terms of power trasnfer, while I can definrtly put out some serious power on this bike, its too upright from an "optimal" perspective. But like I've said before, I don't want to be leaning forward (or backwards) any differently than I am in this photo.

While I dont think my Norco is a "bad" fit, something about it is just shy of being perfect (ie. Streamlined but with the balance im looking for)
There's the key.

If you don't have a "half decent baseline," then you have no basis AT ALL for all of the claims you make about your bike's near-perfect fit, it's sublime ride qualities, "the perfect shift," and all of that. Sit back, read, ride, ask questions, and stop pretending to be an expert.
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Old 01-27-21, 09:39 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
There's the key.

If you don't have a "half decent baseline," then you have no basis AT ALL for all of the claims you make about your bike's near-perfect fit, it's sublime ride qualities, "the perfect shift," and all of that. Sit back, read, ride, ask questions, and stop pretending to be an expert.
The only way for me to learn is by having access to a broad variety of different 61cm road bikes and getting to tinker with all of them to my hearts desire.

Not releastic. I make due with what I have.

Will keep my ideas to a minimum. Im here to learn, which is why I don't get offended to complain to mods.
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Old 01-27-21, 10:28 PM
  #33  
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What prevents you from leaning forward like normal? Back, wrist, seat pain? Anxiety about handling? Why do you want weight further back when you are already halfway to a wheelie?

- I have nearly full leg extension at the 6 o clock crank position, maybe just below when my toes are pointed downwards due to the strap in pedals.
Your saddle is too high.
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Old 01-27-21, 10:53 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
With the way i ride, I guess saddle sorness on long rides is inevitable.
Your upright seating isn't causing you saddle soreness. Your seat just looks too high.

You'll read or hear among the best fitters in the field, too high a seat causes way more problems including knee injuries than too low a seat.

It's always far better to err on the side of too low a seat than too high.

Great video for teaching how to correctly set seat height and also explains the importance of getting it right:


Last edited by cubewheels; 01-27-21 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 01-28-21, 05:21 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
How would you guys suggest I go about getting a slightly more stretched out position on a future bike build? When I was using a 60mm stem instead of my current 40mm I didn't like it. So by playing around with chainstay, top tube and reach angles, i should be able to lower my stem a little and get more streamlined. Right?
This is me in my default long duration riding position. The last picture of me you saw is my downhill aero tuck posture which I obviously only used in downhills and NOT for long duration riding.

You do need to be this low to realize significant aero benefit for solo riding. Signficant like seeing higher cruising speeds. But you need to be trained and well adapted in that position and that takes time.

My bike setup / fit is designed to emulate Time Trial bike fit. It's a little bit stretched out so I can tuck my elbows closer together and clear my knees at the same time. I have inward canted brake hoods setup which allows me to put my elbows even closer together to further reduce aero drag. It's quite aero (by upright bike standards) but also very safe for road use as I have brake access at all time. You'll notice I'm fairly low on the bike which considerably improves road handling, safety, and resistance to "endovers" when braking hard.

I'm a "heel dropper" as my adopted pedaling technique (my toes pointing upward in the pedal stroke). It's the main factor how I'm able to sit low on the bike and still have optimum knee angle (30 degrees at the green and yellow line). The secondary factor is that I prefer a large seat setback to have my arms unloaded as possible to improve riding comfort over our very bumpy roads.

I'm using seat suspension so with the vast majority of my weight over the pedals and then the saddle, I remain comfortable even when riding over bumpy gravel roads and cobblestone roads.


Last edited by cubewheels; 01-28-21 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 01-28-21, 07:31 AM
  #36  
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That's an interesting fit I think quite like what was considered normal for a regular Dutch or British bike some decades ago.

There's a guy called Nick Maclaren who used to post to uk.rec.cycling.moderated, possibly still does, who is always complaining about the fit of modern bikes. I think he's very tall and also likes his seat super high, so toes down, and quite upright, but I may have remembered wrong. He has all kinds of reasons why this is better which I didn't always entirely follow but he seems like he knows what he's talking about.
​​​
This is the sort of thing :
​​​​​https://groups.google.com/g/uk.rec.cycling.moderated/c/zsxCng-Mf40/m/XqqqpKaoZIUJ

I don't know the full theory but I think it's very high and laid back saddle with a straight back. He says you can ride for 10 hours like that in comfort.

Last edited by guy153; 01-28-21 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 01-28-21, 09:31 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by guy153 View Post
I don't know the full theory but I think it's very high and laid back saddle with a straight back. He says you can ride for 10 hours like that in comfort.
With proper bike fit, almost anyone can ride for ten hours without having to look like Mrs. Doubtfire.

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Old 01-28-21, 01:22 PM
  #38  
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Yeah, Moisture's not-Unique Frame Fit

Below is a typical Amsterdam cyclist, including the pretty girl part and earbuds. One of the more useful aspects of this position is that it's so much easier to text. But seriously, this is the preferred transportation fit. Note the pedal in the instep - that's normal. There seem to be two fit choices, like below and with a slightly lower saddle to allow both feet on the ground while sitting. Otherwise, everyone not wearing a jersey looks like this. Visibility is excellent, both seeing and being seen, and one can wear a skirt or a greatcoat with no impediment.



The downside of the transportation position vs. the recreational position is that the cockpit is cramped and your weight is forced well back. It's hard to get your weight over the downstroke pedal while seated, and there's no room to stand. The above bike is perfectly suited to Amsterdam transportation, no climbing, heavy bike traffic, and lots of stopping. There's little glute or hamstring involvement. Grab a glute or hamstring and try doing a half-squat, first with torso upright and then bent over in the road bike position. The whole posterior chain, including back muscles, is missing in the transportation position..

Recreational riding is about having fun, and having fun includes going fast and covering distance. If we had to ride like the above for sport, I don't think many of us would be doing it. There's just nothing like hammering up a hill, out of the saddle and in the drops. Plus, it makes you stronger. It's not just going faster, it's also becoming fitter and staying fit.
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Old 01-28-21, 02:23 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The downside of the transportation position vs. the recreational position is that the cockpit is cramped and your weight is forced well back. It's hard to get your weight over the downstroke pedal while seated, and there's no room to stand. The above bike is perfectly suited to Amsterdam transportation, no climbing, heavy bike traffic, and lots of stopping. There's little glute or hamstring involvement. ...
Recreational riding is about having fun, and having fun includes going fast and covering distance. If we had to ride like the above for sport, I don't think many of us would be doing it. There's just nothing like hammering up a hill, out of the saddle and in the drops. Plus, it makes you stronger. It's not just going faster, it's also becoming fitter and staying fit.
this is what I was getting at when I said...

Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
the setup you have there is bolt-upright. you're almost standing up like you're walking. that's fine for an upright city bike, and if that's what you're going for, please understand that and present your ideas in that context.
so Moisture, you are, of course, free to do whatever you want, but if you're going to suggest that your specific style of bike fit is worthwhile, for what is it worthwhile? fitting a bike for going short distances on city streets at low speed is probably best optimized in the way you did it. but you make a bunch of claims about the performance characteristics of that fitting that don't gel with the reality that everyone else experiences. for most of the people who spend time being concerned about optimizing the way their bike fits, a bolt-upright, Dutch cruiser style fit is not of much use to them because they need a bike that can be fast, comfortable, and stable for long hours in the saddle. if all you're doing is zipping a few blocks across town with a latte in one hand, it really doesn't matter how your bike fits, so it might as well be laid back like you're sitting in a desk chair. but for the people who read this forum and are recreational riders, we need something totally different. the priorities are different, so the results are different. presenting your perspective to the general audience of this forum as if it's universally awesome is like telling someone to use a table knife to perform (recreational) brain surgery when what they need is a precision made scalpel. (it's a metaphor, don't read too much into that.)

I challenge you to keep pushing the limits of what you can do on that bike. try riding 50, 75, and 120 km on it at one time. monitor how long you can hold a 30km/h pace. think about what muscles are sore after a longer ride. you will probably then start to understand why the rest of us are confounded by the conclusions you think are so profound, and why we do the opposite of what you're doing to keep riding bikes fun for us, and not a chore.
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Old 01-28-21, 03:17 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yeah, Moisture's not-Unique Frame Fit

Below is a typical Amsterdam cyclist, including the pretty girl part and earbuds. One of the more useful aspects of this position is that it's so much easier to text. But seriously, this is the preferred transportation fit. Note the pedal in the instep - that's normal. There seem to be two fit choices, like below and with a slightly lower saddle to allow both feet on the ground while sitting. Otherwise, everyone not wearing a jersey looks like this. Visibility is excellent, both seeing and being seen, and one can wear a skirt or a greatcoat with no impediment.

The downside of the transportation position vs. the recreational position is that the cockpit is cramped and your weight is forced well back. It's hard to get your weight over the downstroke pedal while seated, and there's no room to stand. The above bike is perfectly suited to Amsterdam transportation, no climbing, heavy bike traffic, and lots of stopping. There's little glute or hamstring involvement. Grab a glute or hamstring and try doing a half-squat, first with torso upright and then bent over in the road bike position. The whole posterior chain, including back muscles, is missing in the transportation position..

Recreational riding is about having fun, and having fun includes going fast and covering distance. If we had to ride like the above for sport, I don't think many of us would be doing it. There's just nothing like hammering up a hill, out of the saddle and in the drops. Plus, it makes you stronger. It's not just going faster, it's also becoming fitter and staying fit.
Moisture described his fit as follows: "This fit is extremely effective from a power transfer and handling perspective..."

It's very difficult to take him at all seriously.
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Old 01-28-21, 04:53 PM
  #41  
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I really think it’s more a matter of inexperience/naïveté rather than trolling here.

When I first met my wife, she hadn’t been on a bike since she was a kid. Her words.

But she took to cycling very quickly.
Got a couple different bikes now, with favorites and everything.
Does tours, centuries. Commutes to and from work.
Before the pandemic, we used to do this nightly loop from my apartment in Manhattan’s financial district onto the Brooklyn bridge, through downtown Brooklyn and back into Manhattan on the Manhattan bridge. If she was feeling sassy, we’d extend our ride up to prospect park or Central Park or the GW bridge. Sometimes we’d head up to Coney Island.
Anyway, pretty strong cyclist, especially now. We’re still out there putting down mileage, only on Staten Island/NNJ/the Jersey shore until the city comes back.

Thing is, back when she was just getting a feel for cycling, she insisted for like a year that her bike had to be set up just like Moisture’s. Didn’t matter what kind of bike, it could have been a cruiser, a mountain bike, a road bike. She had to be in that exact same position on whatever bike she was riding.

Took a lot of time in the saddle but she eventually figured out the proper fit for specific bikes. That upright cruiser type style for her English three speed, in the drops on a road bike, and so on.

She’s progressed to the point where she will now advise her friends on proper saddle height and such when they’re out riding together.
She’ll say stuff like, “I did it like that when I started too but...”

Pretty sure Moisture will eventually come around as well.
In the meantime, it might be a good idea to not come off like an authority on the subject all the time. Just saying...
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Old 01-28-21, 05:18 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
What prevents you from leaning forward like normal? Back, wrist, seat pain? Anxiety about handling? Why do you want weight further back when you are already halfway to a wheelie?


Your saddle is too high.
I feel like I have a lot of weight in my upper body, particularly on my left side. Compared to many of you, I can clearly feel that I need to lean forward to weigh my front wheel much less. I only "need" a short cockpit to otherwise weigh the front end the same amount.

It is a combination of those different factors. My back gets sore, I feel too much weight in my wrists (only if my stem is substationally lower than it is now), and worrying about the front tire slipping prematurely, yes.

The biggest reason here really, is that it becomes difficult for me to subconciously keep my weight off the saddle/ bars and into the cranks the entire time I am riding. When I am mindful of the way my weight is biased, I can definetly ride with a lower handlebar, although nothing significant.

I will begin to gradually lower my stem and focus on keeping weight off the wrists.

As I have said before, while my riding position may look very cruiser ish, that's not the way I feel or handle on this bike, at all. Leaning forward, such as during a climb or when sprinting quickly gives me enough leverage over the cranks to active my posterior chain
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Old 01-28-21, 05:22 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
I feel like I have a lot of weight in my upper body, particularly on my left side. Compared to many of you, I can clearly feel that I need to lean forward to weigh my front wheel much less. I only "need" a short cockpit to otherwise weigh the front end the same amount.

It is a combination of those different factors. My back gets sore, I feel too much weight in my wrists (only if my stem is substationally lower than it is now), and worrying about the front tire slipping prematurely, yes.

The biggest reason here really, is that it becomes difficult for me to subconciously keep my weight off the saddle/ bars and into the cranks the entire time I am riding. When I am mindful of the way my weight is biased, I can definetly ride with a lower handlebar, although nothing significant.

I will begin to gradually lower my stem and focus on keeping weight off the wrists.

As I have said before, while my riding position may look very cruiser ish, that's not the way I feel or handle on this bike, at all. Leaning forward, such as during a climb or when sprinting quickly gives me enough leverage over the cranks to active my posterior chain
The left side of your upper body weighs significantly more than the right side? wtaf?

The second statement that I put in bold font indicates that your fit is all wrong. As has been pointed out repeatedly to you.

Your fit makes a cruiser look like a race bike.
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Old 01-28-21, 06:59 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
You'll read or hear among the best fitters in the field...
He doesn't need to hear from the best fitters in the field. He needs any average bike sales guy. Or just read or watch any average bike fit guide like this one


He also doesn't need to try a variety of frames, because the one he's got is perfectly average and inoffensive... if it were being treated normally.
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Old 01-28-21, 07:11 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yeah, Moisture's not-Unique Frame Fit

Below is a typical Amsterdam cyclist, including the pretty girl part and earbuds. One of the more useful aspects of this position is that it's so much easier to text. But seriously, this is the preferred transportation fit. Note the pedal in the instep - that's normal. There seem to be two fit choices, like below and with a slightly lower saddle to allow both feet on the ground while sitting. Otherwise, everyone not wearing a jersey looks like this. Visibility is excellent, both seeing and being seen, and one can wear a skirt or a greatcoat with no impediment.

The downside of the transportation position vs. the recreational position is that the cockpit is cramped and your weight is forced well back. It's hard to get your weight over the downstroke pedal while seated, and there's no room to stand. The above bike is perfectly suited to Amsterdam transportation, no climbing, heavy bike traffic, and lots of stopping. There's little glute or hamstring involvement. Grab a glute or hamstring and try doing a half-squat, first with torso upright and then bent over in the road bike position. The whole posterior chain, including back muscles, is missing in the transportation position..

Recreational riding is about having fun, and having fun includes going fast and covering distance. If we had to ride like the above for sport, I don't think many of us would be doing it. There's just nothing like hammering up a hill, out of the saddle and in the drops. Plus, it makes you stronger. It's not just going faster, it's also becoming fitter and staying fit.
The only problem with Moisture's fit is seat too high. And maybe if he's going to do anything more than a commuter would do, then yes, it's NOT the best position to be in.

He can lean over the handlebar though by folding his arms at the elbows like many XC MTB riders do to improve handling and get more aero but it's an uncomfortable position if you're not used to it.

I've gone out of the saddle on a cramped upright bike, arms folded but it's far less stable compared to a road bike in a typical road bike geometry. Takes a bit more effort with the upperbody to do it.
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Old 01-28-21, 07:13 PM
  #46  
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Oh c'mon folks. This is interesting to me. Something's going on here.

OP, I'm curious about how you got this bike. It's obviously an older bike and you're a big guy. It's not easy to find a just-right used bike. Or have you had this bike since you were a kid? Anyway, the fit you've come up with might very well be the best that can be done on that bike. I'm curious to know if this is the case, so . . .

Try this:
Go to an online bike fit website, this one: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...ulatorBike.jsp
Specify that you want a road bike fit in inches.
Put in all your dimensions. You may need to have someone help you get the measurements. Choose the competitive fit.

You'll get a long series of measurement for your prospective bike. You're really only interested in top tube length, which is really effective top tube length as many bikes now have sloping top tubes.. Everything else can be modified.

Compare that top tube length result to the length of the top tube on the bike you have. That length is measured along the center of the top tube, between the centers of the seat tube and head tube.
How does it compare? Report back.
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Old 01-28-21, 07:42 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
He doesn't need to hear from the best fitters in the field. He needs any average bike sales guy. Or just read or watch any average bike fit guide like this one

like this

He also doesn't need to try a variety of frames, because the one he's got is perfectly average and inoffensive... if it were being treated normally.
Neill's fitting guide in the video I posted also adviced heel on the pedal method. Universal and easy. But he also adviced to reduce the saddle height from the heel method 15mm if you're a "toe dipper" and 30mm or even more if you're a "heel dropper".

And then get on the trainer, pedal, stop, raise the saddle 2mm. pedal again, repeat until it feels just right and you're not bouncing on the seat. Note that you will NOT bounce on your seat with a seat too low but you will bounce if the seat is too high.

I like Neill's guide better because it prevents you from setting the seat too high and accounts for "heel droppers" like me. The standard heel on pedal method is too high setting for me. That was the first method I tried and I bounced a lot, lowered the seat 10mm which improved the situation but did not cure the problem (and other problems like soreness on the groin, back knee pain) because the seat is still too high despite lowering it by 10mm, and then by 20mm (still didn't work and I thought my saddle is at fault).

Then I found Neill's guide, followed his method, lowered the seat by a huge amount, 60 cm in my case, and then kept raising it 2mm until it felt just right, I still ended up with a considerably lower seat than my last fit. It solved all problems caused by too high seat and my performance improved by a significant margin

Also the plumb line method used to find seat setback may not work for everyone. There's another method that looks for your COG on the bike instead but again, this method will not work for everyone but now you have two options. The COG method will require better flexibility if you're going to ride in aggressive posture. Because there's bigger chance you'll need to move your sit back with the COG method which closes your hip angle. But if you are flexible enough for it, the COG method is a more comfortable adjustment, especially on the hands.

Once I got everything corrected, I was able to use my triathlon saddle again (ISM PN1.1) without any discomfort even without any padding on my shorts.
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Old 01-28-21, 07:44 PM
  #48  
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2mm! hahaha, more like three inches
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Old 01-28-21, 08:00 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
2mm! hahaha, more like three inches
2mm incrementally after you lower the saddle 15 or >30mm from the heel on pedal method. Pedal on the trainer, raise the saddle by 2mm, pedal again, then raise the saddle 2mm, pedal, and so on and so forth until it feels right.

I'm not a native English speaker so I may have put it wrong. Watch the video I posted instead to make sure you're getting the right info.

My other bike's seat was also set too high. It's rather easy to make that mistake that comes with more bad consequences than having the seat set too low.

Not only my other issues are cured but my quads are no longer getting sore even if mashing on long and steep climbs because the load is now distributed more evenly to the glutes and hamstrings as well, not just the quads and calves doing most of the work.
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Old 01-28-21, 08:10 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
It is a combination of those different factors. My back gets sore, I feel too much weight in my wrists (only if my stem is substationally lower than it is now), and worrying about the front tire slipping prematurely, yes.

The biggest reason here really, is that it becomes difficult for me to subconciously keep my weight off the saddle/ bars and into the cranks the entire time I am riding. When I am mindful of the way my weight is biased, I can definetly ride with a lower handlebar, although nothing significant.
You do need to strengthen your core muscles in this case if you wish to lean more forward and also learn how to "activate" your core muscles during riding to use them to support your upperbody weight.

You may search the internet on ways to do that. Takes some time to get used to it. There are no shortcuts!
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