I'll try make some videos and also try my kineses commuter too which feels more stable with a pannier on the left side.

No, your saddle is too high for you. Guaranteed. A person can adapt more easily to a lower saddle, with no issues, than a too high saddle, which can, and will cause issues with your back. knees, and hips. After any change in bike fit, you need to take it easy for a while for your body to get used to it. Your legs will adjust. Your knees won't have issues, unless you push a too high of a gear. On the other hand, if you are dropping to one side, you WILL damage your hips, and you WILL end up with back pain, or worse. Read this one carefully, as it documents the damage done to a woman's back, requiring spinal surgery to correct, as a result of a professions fitter putting her seat too high based on angles, numbers, and formulae, instead of setting the seat height based on paying attention to how her body actually interfaces with the bike while in motion. https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...d-can-it-be-2/

If you look closely at your pictures, your heels are raised slightly, you are reaching slightly at the bottom of the stroke. So to me, between that, and the other signs, the seat is too high. You are pedaling toes down.

If and when your flexibility improves, you could raise your seat, but at he moment, if you are sliding off to one side, the saddle is too high. I would make that change first, and go from there. Use the method for setting seat height as detailed on Steve Hogg's site. See if it works for you. It will give you a seat height that gives you maximum power for your body's ability, and at the same time, it will give you a fit that prevents injury. See if the method puts your seat lower, or higher. My bet, is it will put your saddle lower.

People get hung up on the old mantra. "Your seat is too low," to the point that so many now run their seat too high. I see it all the time around here, then I watch the pros, and look at the bend of their leg, and see it is bent more at he bottom of the stroke than in the majority of the images I see here on the bike fit section.

I personally had this issue, I noticed the dimples on my B17 were biased to the right side. I was dropping to the right side. I also experienced perineum discomfort. I began dropping my saddle, which helped the dropping to the right, but I still had discomfort, but not as bad. I held out dropping the saddle that last little bit, until I was on tour and having issues. I ended up dropping it just 5mm more, and surprise, the pain went away. I am now more efficient pedaling, and can ride all day, with zero pain, and get up and do it again. After 70 miles on the saddle, I feel fine. I just wish I hadn't waited so long to take the advice of Hogg, and others, like BikefitJames. Look him up on Instagram. Before I lowered the saddle, I experienced issues with my hip, and lower back, but according to the fit "experts," my saddle was set at the perfect height. By the way, it took years, and steroids for the hip pain to go away. I never want to make that mistake ever again.

In the end, none of us are symmetrical. I would definitely start with lowering your seat, but definitely work on flexibility if you think you could potentially set your seat higher. Just pay attention to how your body interfaces with the bike in motion. Hogg has another article regarding this that shows sometimes there is not fix for this, but generally speaking, of you drop to one side, your set is too high. Do you get saddle sores?

I'll try 5mm lower tonight on the turbo see how it feels

I'm also with phughes. What caught my eye is that you set saddle height using heel-on-pedal and then pedal toes down, which means you're reaching for the pedals. You're probably reaching when you do the heel-on-pedal test, which mistake is really common. I think the earlier comment about climbing in lower gears might be something to look at more closely. Most riders want at a 75-85 cadence when climbing. If you're running out of gears to be able to do that on 10%, get lower gears. It used to be a thing to have a small cassette, In time, most riders get over that.

When trying to get saddle height just right, I go out with an allen wrench in my pocket and mess with saddle height on a relatively gentle hill, say 5%-6%, until using my heel cups to pull the pedal back at the bottom of the stroke with my usual cadence feels powerful.

Have you guys got any references for these WILD claims?
Seriously.

Being too high will cause you to rock and you will know quite quickly that your uncomfortable at that height. No injuries though. Seriously. What can you injure from being too high?
Being too low will cause you to grind on the cranks and put too much stress on your knees. The risks are well known.

I think his cranks are too long and this is the source of his problems. Adjusting the seat height probably won't fix his problems however I want to see his seat height up in order to confirm that his closed up leg angles aren't simply from a low saddle height.

There is a lot of truth in that. I went with shorter cranks as well. I had to lower the seat height, so the shorter cranks helped up top so my hips didn't close up too much.I was reaching at the bottom, but my hips were fine up top with the original cranks. Lowering the saddle helped at the bottom, but the shorter cranks felt better with the lower seat height. As far as seat height goes though, dropping to one side is a big indicator of a too high seat height, that coupled with the fact he is pedaling toes down pretty much cinches it.

As for a too high of a seat height not causing injuries, baloney, dropping to one side as he does is horrible on the hips, and lower back. Your body will accommodate a slightly lower saddle, more readily than a too high seat height. Once you make a change though, you shouldn't just mash away, you need tome to adjust to the position, though honestly, if you follow Steve Hogg's method of setting seat height, when you are done, you will spin more efficiently, and should be more comfortable all the way around.

Seriously read Hogg's article on seat height, and try his method. It really does work. He has you make changes in 3mm increments. If you are dropping to one side, you may have to drop more than 5mm. After being set up initially, I had to drop around 20mm total. That's a lot, and getting the saddle down made me much more stable on the bike. As I said before, I was really resistant to dropping it the last 5mm, I got it close, and went months before dropping it the rest of the way. I shouldn't have been so stubborn.

Keep this in mind as well. If you try the heel test, putting your heel on the pedal to measure seat height, measure with the crank arm in line with the seat tube, not perpendicular to the ground. Inline with the seat tube will give you the longest point of the pedal stroke in relation to the seat, and interestingly, is pretty much where my seat height is now, after going through all these gyrations. If you set it with the crank perpendicular to the ground, as most people do, you end up with a higher seat, and you will be reaching when the pedal is at the actual bottom of the stroke, which is when the crank is inline with the seat tube.

These are not wild claims. Read the links I posted from Hogg's website. Also check out Bikefitmaes on Instagram. Also check out this page: https://neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=364 Here is a quote from that article, "Torque measurements through the crank arm show us time and time again that power output drops off rapidly if the seat is too high, but only slightly if the seat is too low due to the hamstring’s relative contribution to the pedal stroke. It is usually better to be slightly too low than slightly too high."

To be honest I'm not a fan of Hogg as he has posted some ridiculous things on crank length.
Anyway, If the OP's saddle was too high I would expect to see a straight knee at the bottom of the stroke. I'm looking at the bend in his knee at the bottom and I want to see it straightened out a little.
I really think that the cranks are too long on this bike and sorting out any leg discrepancies is key here as well.

I thought 170mm cranks were short already, are they really going to be too long? I think I have some 165 to try but I never assumed they'd be too long, I used to use 172.5 on my commuter. So addition 165mm cranks will mean raise saddle 5mm as well?

also on the subject of stopping my feet scrubbing and hitting frame, if I do that I feel like I push my heel out. Look at my stance
Found 165mm 50 34 as well
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8336d2f8f1.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5923b52fba.jpg

Yes, your getting conflicting advice left right and centre here.
Personally I would like to isolate one issue at a time and work through them first.

I think your leg angles are too closed up (your knee is getting too high at the top and not particularly straight at the bottom) and lowering the saddle will make it worse yet others are claiming that your saddle is currently too high.
What the shorter cranks will do is to allow your leg angles to open up while the saddle is in a relatively lower position.

I'm guessing that you have asymmetrical issues with your legs that are making things worse.

So leave all as is and try 165mm cranks first ? (Also adjust saddle up 5mm?)

I'd like to see you try putting the saddle up 5mm and see what happens. Try putting down 5mm and see what happens.
Take notes of how it feels/works for you.
The shorter cranks will help to smooth you out and should make you more stable on the saddle.

IME, way too much is made of tiny changes in crank length. Makes no sense. Going to shorter cranks is a fad right now, the solution to everything. 5.5 X your inseam (pubic bone to floor in socks) = crank length in mm. Measure and see what that is. My number is 165, but I ride 175 cranks with no issues. My wife's number is 149, but she rides 165s with no issues. Pantani rode 180s. My wife and I may be anomalous however: we've been hiking and riding and gymming together for almost 50 years. Being fit makes a difference.

I do have to say though that I rode my son's trainer last night and was worn out trying to keep even 75 as my cadence while in a low gear and almost no resistance. He has one of his old 29er's on it that has 170 mm cranks. Yes I agree not much, but that extra 5 mm up and 5 mm down of leg travel wore me out and I felt like I was thrashing right from the start.

On my bike in the real world with 165 mm cranks, I find myself sometimes cruising at over 100 cadence and not thinking anything of it. And perfectly comfortable. Similarly, my wife's stationary bike that I use sometimes has 160 mm cranks and I can stay on it as long as I can my bike.

May son's trainer, I was worn out after 30 minutes. Not sure if that's a good type of getting worn out or a bad type of getting worn out. The only obvious difference so far is the crank length. But I'm going to try and look into it more as I get a chance.

Just because Hogg has some things you don't agree with, doesn't mean everything he says doesn't have merit. Hogg isn't the only one who holds these views, I quoted others as well, it is just that Hogg has two really good articles on how to set seat height so that you can pedal fluidly through the entire pedal stroke, and prevent injuries, and be more stable on the bike.

You do not need a straight leg to have a too high seat height, in fact, that is what is wrong with many people's idea of seat height today, they think the leg should be basically straight. You need some bend. You also aren't taking into account differing flexibility level between riders.

In the OP's case, it is fairly obvious, he is dropping off the saddle to one side, and he is pedaling toes down, so he is reaching for the pedal. I guarantee he is not pedaling smoothly throughout the pedaling stoke, but instead, loses power at the bottom of each stroke.

I've got the 165mm cranks on, then I realised no stages power meter, I'm going to be lost without my stages :(

I'm prepared to give it a try if it might improve my position. Saddle left the same so that's 5mm lower.

Not going to get to test it tonight the GF will kill me as she's gone to sleep.

Here is a side look at my bike, as you can see it's a saddle that sweeps up and the bike fitter had my tilt it down a bit to allow my pelvis to rotate more.

The drop seems very low but in person there is more of a visible drop between the bar and saddle
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2bfdcc54ae.jpg

Nice bike! Yeah, so what is your measured pubic bone to floor measurement? That looks like a fairly small bike. The saddle and bar setup looks fine to me.

I've noted more info before sorry if boggling peopel's mind it's just as this info comes to me I mention it.

I haven't measured that.

It's a 52, or around around 53.4 top tube, my commuter is a 54. I'm 5ft 10 most people always thought my 54 planet X I used to have was too small but I used to ride 56cm frames and I was always stretched out, saddle pushed as far forward as possible and a short 6cm stem.

This 52 has a 11cm stem and the saddle is about half way on the rails.

I don't know how to measure that, shoes off ram a hard book up your crotch and measure?

Years ago I remember I can't remember if it was 175mm or 172.5mm cranks but I got horrendous knee pain and other pains in my leg not sure if it was coincidence but I swiftly went back to 170. Must have been 175 as my commuter used to have 172.5.

Not sure if it's insignificant but I can never get 100% comfy in my shorts in 2016 I had testicular cancer and my right testicle was removed and sometimes I wonder if this causes some discomfort.

I started actually properly cycling again last year in April due to lockdown and quickly picked fork up and managing 50 mile rides 3 days in a row, I was doing this on my carrera which was I'll fitting 56cm fully forward saddle on seat post, at the time was a flat saddle not a scooped one, 6cm stem and didn't have many concerns.

Got my Trek in June started riding it was ok initial, then one day I was on a rose felt unstable and realised that left sit bone wasn't in contact with saddle at all, and from that day on I couldn't work with the bike.

I've always suffered with neck pain as well which hopefully s video might identify and I've got a massage tomorrow at a physio place and going through OH referral at my workplace to see if I can get my back looked at.

I have tried many different stem lengths, different bar width (42, 38 and 40) of which 40cm seems the only width I like, different bar tild, different saddles, Selle Italia, Pro Lite I think it was, Specialized Bridge (145 and 155 both had same symptom of slipping off, kept 145 as 155 seemed a bit wide), different setback, different tilts.

Briefly rode with SPD rather than SPD SL, but they hurt on more than 25 mile rides. But did feel a bit more stable.

I also tried another Specialized saddle, it was a short nose saddle, that felt a lot more stable but really hurt around my right sitbone, felt like it gave me some soft tissue damage, that had to go.

My vision is to be able to be at a similar form I used to be 100 mile rides at a nice pace, 19 to 20mph average was always the sweet spot for me.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1de8f1c71c.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...72bb7c509d.jpg
saddle height unchanged just with 165mm cranks