I measured my inseam, rammed a hard book up as much as I can and it came out at 81.8cm

Could my arm length and torso length be an issue effective my balance ?

I just go for snug. Hard as you can and you might have trouble keeping the top of the book parallel to the ground and you'll still be off measuring.

81.8 cm? Then is your saddle height from top of the saddle where you sit to the pedal when furthest away from the saddle somewhere in the range of 84.2 cm to 89.1 cm?

So you want to have an operation and change those things. I'm not sure you are going to find a doctor willing to do that. Lets just change stuff on the bike or the bike itself.

Saddle height is probably the first thing you need to get right before anything else.

It is at 90, assuming 73 + 17 for the crank from middle to middle.

It's at 89. 5 actually as I remember it went down to 72.5cm

So we are working off the "I think" it is this instead of "this is what it is".

Well, like a few other people that have responded to your thread. You might need to drop the saddle a cm or so. Or have you fixed the problem you referenced in the thread title?

If you don't care to try dropping the saddle and riding for a few 1 hour or so rides to see what it does, then let us know you don't want to drop the saddle and at least I'll quit suggesting it.

It's not that I don't want to drop it any further, it's the observations I've had when I've already tried it lower from knee pain and also inability to sustain power in hills to the feeling I'm pushing myself off the saddle.

I just can't fathom how the slight discrepancy with the saddle or anything could cause this phantom problem. Many people including myself in the past have messed with position making "large" changes and had no impact. Now it seems whatever I do this problem won't go away and I literally can't throw any money at it anymore as I can't afford to.

I've got a potential physio appointment on Monday as I was off work for a few days last week as I pulled a muscle or trapped a nerve under the shoulder blade it felt causing horrendous pain in the arm and back.

I'm not trying to be difficult it's just I'm very cautious or weary about making changes like saddle height especially where the leg position seems comfy from a perspective of getting to the pedals no knee pain no hip rocking, but this slip is just blizzard.

I went round to a friend's house and he had a look at me and was looking the lines of "oh my god you're twisted one leg looks like proper road cyclists other leg looks like average Joe on a I'll fitting MTB popping to the shops"

The left leg inwards and right leg outwards as already has been seen.

I haven't tried increasi my stance 2cm each side as I do have the adaptors for that but I don't really know if I should attempt those.

I know people are getting sick of this as it's dragged on, but I'm trying my best to work out what's going on.

I've drastically changed my bike position from:
Reach: 67 to 66 (same as bike fit 2015)
Saddle Height: 72.7 to 72.5 (bike for 2015 had me at 73)
Bars height - 97.5 - 97
The Saddle - BB has shifted approc from 7cm to 5cm (bike fit 2015 had me as 4cm but I can't get it that far forward)

Cleats moved backwards from position 5 to 3

I'm clearly not hugely senstive to changes, I'd say this position feels different in the sense I feel I may be getting more power down, there may be more weight on my hands but it's not having any worsening symptoms.

The front feels wobbly, it's an 11cm stem, maybe that's why?

I measured my inseam the best I could and it came out as 81.8 but looking at the documentation from a bike fit in 2015 they had me at 83cm inseam and I'd say their attempt would be more accurate than mine.

moved the saddle down to 72.5 and test as since moving cleats from 5 to 3 ( approc 4mm) the saddle feels higher.

My two bobs worth.
You need to stop chasing power at this point and make a significant commitment to smoothing out your power delivery and balancing yourself.
This won't be easy or happen straight away. It will take commitment to not go flat out everywhere. I've definitely been there.
I'd move the saddle back on the rails for the time being and just work at being smooth and it will take work to get there.

I'm tempted to move it as far back but to try a 10cm stem as opposed to the 11 I have on. My arms do feels at a better angle currently (66cm reach)

Best I can do is 66.5cm reach though with 10cm stem and saddle as far back as it'll go.

Unless I just move it back 1cm.

I'm not chasing power as such I just observed a good effort testing it as when I take it for a quick test ride here I'm going up a hill.

I'm struggling to work out how this balance is going to be fixed as just riding isn't fixing it, I'm getting upper body paids from constantly having to stablise myself it's like I myself am swerving to stablise the bike.

I'm not talking about hanging on to the handlebars for dear life. I'm talking about evening up and smoothing out your legs.
It will take work and time and your going to have to back off the power of your strong leg quite a bit while you try and build up your weaker leg.
It won't happen overnight.

I'm referring to the fact I feel I may be too stretched so felt 1cm less reach just felt more "correct" to me.

The doctor is referring me to be tested for HLA.B27 my mum and uncle has it and could be possible I may have it and also suspicions of Rhumatoid Spondyloarthritis so unsure what effect they may be having and possibly could make a normal correct bike position feel wrong and may be why I get neck in pain.

You said above that you moved the saddle forwards from 7cm setback to 5cm setback, and now your thinking about shortening the stem. Your scrunching up your position. Moving the saddle forwards is usually counterproductive in my experience as it puts more weight on your hands/shoulders. I'd move your saddle back to 7cm again.

The GF has let me get another bike fit, 225 quid on the 29th July at Rapha in Manchester. Hopefully this will sort it if not it's time to quit cycling sadly.

I'm going around in circles trying to do this myself.

Well good luck with the fitting yet honestly I'm not sure it will work. The problem with a pro fitting is that these guys are usually fitting people with the idea of getting more power for them and I don't believe that this is what you need right now. My view is that you need to back off from the idea of power and speed, bias your position towards comfort, and painstakingly work at balancing your legs. This will mean backing off with the leading leg, soft pedalling for a while and working on developing the weaker leg.
You won't get there trying to go full tilt everywhere.

I'm going to email maybe call as I've got till 29th July do if I discuss with them maybe they can decide if they can help me with what I need rather than sticking me in a pro fit to squeeze loads of power and cripple me.

Hopefully he isn't just in sales mode and will be honest.

Right so thinking no point bothering with anything else until Physio has looked at me and bike fit.

Went for a ride, unstable as hell, totally miffed.

I then just thought, it feels like my left foot is in a different place over the pedal than my right, however they're exactly the same.

My saddle is at 72.5mm now, the cleats moved as far back as they'll go, surprisingly that didn't feel weird.

Hoiwever I thought, perhaps if there is some something giving the effect of shorter left leg, moving the cleats forward will effectively lower the saddle for the left side.

So I've moved the left side cleat to where I oringnally had it, left the right shoe as is, the left cleat is 6mm further forward than my right.

What I noticed when I did a 37 mile bike ride today is better stability slowing down, better acceleration, no swerving of the bike and smoother pedaling and ability to keep a more consistent power reading rather than it jumping up and down.

It's still far from perfect but it seems better than at any point this year.

I'm not sure if I should move the cleat even further to see if it adds any stability or to add a shim, or just persevere until July 29th as it is.

I've said it before and I will say it again.
Disconnect the power meter. Let it be the last thing on your mind. You need to soft pedal for a while at a highish cadence and be concerned about nothing other than riding smoothly.
You will not fix your issues by going at it like a bull at a gate.

Here's an interesting thought that helped me with feeling like I was always leaning the bike to the right, I turned my seat ever so slightly towards the right. I do mean like maybe a mm or 2 at the front point without changing anything else and suddenly, my sit bones were both on the saddle and not over compensating to one side. Give it a whirl, what have you got to lose at this point? Good luck

I've tried the turning the seat it didn't work at all just had my thigh hitting the saddle unfortunately

I don't want to disconnect the power meter it might not be important what my average is but to me I find the observations like much higher power output for the same perceived effort interesting. Now I have a left hand stages power meter, so I think if I'm putting out higher power for the same perceived effort it must be due to the left leg getting to the pedal, so I'm possibly not actually working harder it's just the left power meter will be getting the effect of higher power.

The biggest improvement in stability and ability to pedal smoothly is when I've moved the cleat 6mm further forward on the left shoe but not the right. (I find this part of great significance, it's literally been 1 year and this particular adjustment whilst hasn't fixed everything has made the single biggest change to how I sit on the bike and feel more stable)

This cleat offset has somehow done it, I'm not sure if the reason this does it but shims don't work as well is because of the pelvis.

I need to be stable to ride, with the imbalance I have recently been experiencing power is the least of my worries considering I couldn't actually maintain an effort , riding steadier had the same instability.

Even off the saddle going up a hill I felt more stable, the cleats literally don't even feel offset if someone set the shoes without telling me I'd think they were almost same setup. I feel like the left leg is actually doing work now and is connected to the pedal whilst before it was more like hovering.

Now the question is what really is the issue that cleat offset is helping and if I need to do it more or just leave it as it is and any aches and pains I just suck up for now until another bike fit on July 29th

Sorry, I was traveling when you wrote this. I go for snug when measuring. That being said, stop measuring and using formulae! You have an issue, and have used the "numbers." They are simply a starting point. Your saddle is obviously too high for your given flexibility. Drop the saddle. Use Steve Hogg's method of determining seat height. Stop messing around with numbers and angles. If you don't correct the issue, you will have much worse problems later. Trust me, I know. I had hip pain cause by the same issue that lasted for years. Only steroids allowed it to heal. I was lucky. My seat was too high, but fine according to various fit methods, but it caused the hip pain, and damage, as well as lower back pain. Getting the seat height right, for me, corrected the sideways slide as you call it, and prevented further injury. It had the side benefit of making me more efficient when pedaling.

You have a great fitter about 3 1/2 hours from you. There are not many I would recommend, but I do recommend James. Hey, even if he says my diagnosis is wrong, he will fix your problem. Guaranteed. https://www.bicyclerichmond.co.uk/bike-fit

I'm going to Matt Hallam on 29th July at Rapha shop. He seems reputable and highly recommend and says I'll have a better experience after the fit than with my previous one.

I'd have loved to go to See James but it would cost far too much literally almost double paying for a local fit. I don't drive so only way to get from Manchester to there would be train.

My saddle is too high for my left leg, I don't think it is for my right.

I was riding 73cm it's now at just under 72.5cm, prior to 2015 I was actually riding at 74cm!

My cleat is as far back on the shoe as it will go, the thing that is showing me there is some mismatch between legs is, if my cleats are at the same place and I'm wobbling all over can't keep straight and upper body drifting, and then I move the left cleat forward 6mm compared to the right and I find myself more stable, left leg now feels like it's actually pushing on the pedals.

I've also laid down and had my feet touch against a wall, I notice my left leg won't touch the wall, this was crude with no measurements, but it was a good cm but the looks of it behind.

I'm not saying I've got a leg length discrepancy, but something is causing the effect, it almost looks like my pelvis might be tilted giving the effect the right leg is longer.

After 12 months I do think the problems I'm experiencing are related somewhere to do with imbalance causing an effective discrepancy between the legs.

I imagine shimming should fix this as the cleat stagger isn't brilliant but clearly does help.

I need to correct the imbalance and I hope physio or bike fitter can help, but lowered the saddle any more for my right leg is definitely too low for that leg when it started to cause knee pain. Yes yes I agree the saddle is clearly too high for the left leg, there is an imbalance, a big one it seems and simply lowering the saddle isn't helping, doing that any further does put me in pain, almost like riding a child's tiny bike


I get the impression people think I'm ignoring them, I'm not I've lowered the saddle, I've spent so much time over 12 months trying to fix this, so much time stressing it's even pissing my other half off my faffing with the bike. The cleat change experiment has made the single biggest change in terms of stability whilst it's no where perfect it's clearly highlighted the issue. I want the problem sorted so I can go for a ride and after forget about it and go do other things, the amount of actually cycling time and problems hundreds of pounds wasted it's like a nightmare.


​​​​​​Also just to add, saddle height at 71.5, 72 and 72.5 with cleats the same did not stop the saddle sliding for me, just out me in pain and if I went up s hill at the lower end of those heights I was checking myself off the saddle with a press on the pedal.

Just searched the entire thread for the words "stand" and "stood" and found no instances of either. Standing while climbing can in some cases help alleviate the kind of discomfort you described as occurring with a lower saddle position.

Here's yet another technique for determining saddle height. I've never seen this mentioned anywhere, but it works for me.

With my bike installed on my trainer stand, I begin by raising the saddle to a too-high position where slow backpedaling results in my feet becoming unambiguously unweighted at the bottom of the stroke.

It's easy to tell when that happens, because each foot scoots forward quickly at the bottom until the pedal reaches a point where the foot weight is fully on the pedal again.

Then I lower the saddle drastically to a very low position where I feel the full weight of my foot on each pedal at the bottom while backpedaling.

Finally, I begin raising the saddle in small increments until I just begin to feel my feet unweighing at the bottom of the stroke. I then drop the saddle to the height that I've now determined is the maximum that allows full weight on the pedal at the bottom. Done.

By the way, if you have a leg length discrepancy or some other physical imbalance that results in one foot feeling unweighted and the other not at a given saddle height, you should adjust the saddle lower until both feet are fully weighted on the pedals at the bottom of the stroke.

Judging from how extended your leg and foot are at the bottom of the stroke in your first video above, after adjusting your saddle height per my method, it will feel absurdly low. But it's worth trying out. (For comparison, look at Chris Froome's low-seeming saddle height in videos. Low saddle height, high efficiency.)

Finally, on the topic of knee discomfort, I suspect that many people who ride with power meters try to achieve high power numbers with a lower-than-ideal cadence. It is inarguably easier for them to hit those numbers at lower cadences if they haven't practiced spinning efficiently, but they're not doing their knees any favors.

Once you've arrived at a good saddle height and have the rest of the contact points sorted out, train yourself to keep your cadence above 85 rpm (and preferably around 95 rpm or a bit above that), and you'll likely find that you can still put out your target power with no knee discomfort.

If my saddle is too high and I lower it so it's correct, it's then too low for my right leg and causes knee pain.

I've tried 5MM of shims under the left foot and for the first time I've done a ride where my left sit bone is in contact with the seat. I felt planted and the bike felt like a bike again.

But it's not 100% and I hope a bike fitter can see where this effective leg length is. It seems my pelvis may be tilted effectively lengthening the right leg so if the imbalance was removed I assume my saddle height would be a bit lower.

The saddle height is fine for your right and not your left, because you are dropping to your right to compensate for a too high saddle. You get knee pain initially when you lower it, because you are not used to it, yet. Take it easy for a while after lowering it, and allow your body to get used to it. Your body can tolerate a lower saddle more than a saddle that is too high.

If my saddle is at 72, Vs 74 prior, that's quite a difference, and when I had it at 74 I was doing 150 mile bike rides.

So by that 73 should be adequate and I'm already at 72.5

So something has changed to cause this leg lengths discrepancy which never used to evidently exist and shimming seems to be helping but it's not perfect.

I get that there is saddle too high and symptoms, but it seems I'm already at the lower end and given the above I'm struggling to understand saddle too high.

I need to know why the imbalance has happened and how to correct it somehow because simply lowering the saddle as I've mentioned still gives the symptoms of twisted and slipping off the saddle.

I'm not try to be stubborn it's just I've tried lowering the saddle.