Hi,

You know that part you sometimes read in bike fit articles where you take your hands off the bars and you shouldn't fall forward? Below is a quote from one such article. How important is this? I tried on my bike and I have to scoot my butt past the rear of the saddle to maintain anything like that. I think I see the logic of it but I don't think I'd be able to achieve that.

You're quoting Peter White's (excellent) article on fitting. White answers your question himself: achieving that 'neutral balance' position should be possible on a correctly-sized frame -- but it's just another starting point. Once you have it, you adjust from there (forward or back, etc.) depending on your priorities (power vs. comfort etc.). As he points out, fit on a bicycle is always a compromise to some extent.

Getting my butt back far enough was key for me. To get that position I had to get a seat post with extra setback. But you don't need to be perfectly neutural - just aim for light pressure on your hands.

I wonder if I need a different seatpost? I wonder if I've been riding the wrong size frames all my life? I haven't really been aware of this concept before but my arms do get pretty tired after a while.

If you are noticing arm tiredness/strain during rides and it bothers you, that's a pretty good indicator that something isn't quite right. Could be saddle fore/aft, could be (too much) bar drop, and (oddly) could be either too much or too short a reach to the bars. Could be something of all three.

You might want to have someone take a look at your fit, or (re)set it yourself using something like P. White's guide.

To answer the OP's question, I'd say this is not important at all, and is merely an expression of a fitting philosophy rather than some gold standard that needs to be met in order to ride a bicycle, for example, like your feet need to be able to reach the pedals when sitting on the saddle. That's important. Being able to hold your torso in the hoods grip position without using your hands is not.

Exhibit A: I've never tried it exactly, but I'm pretty sure I can't, yet it doesn't stop me from riding happily for hours at a stretch, and with some pretty decent power.

Alternatively, if you want to ride a bike like you would sit in a chair, then yes, this is important!

I agree completely. I have not read the article but common sense dictates that this has to be only one part of his fitting philosophy and not the centerpiece. That's because no matter where your saddle is, there is bound to be a handlebar position that allows this (like right in front of your chest forcing you upright). Given that it can't be the most important part of the fitting, take it for an ancillary detail. That said, I tried this on my bike yesterday and found that I can lift my hands off the bars and not fall forward but it takes muscular action from my back to accomplish this.

When you do the test of letting go of bars are you peddling or stationary on a trainer. I have seen this mentioned but they never elaborate exactly how you are suppose to do it.

having tried on a trainer, I cannot keep myself up without hands and pedaling. So I assume the counterforce of pedaling is needed to hold one up.

OP, try scooting your saddle back a bit and try again

Seems when I'm good, the fit , has my eyes at line of sight straight thru the steering axis.

Sitting up bike seat back .. bent over , different bike, still in comfortable position

I can look down and the axis is line of sight ..

30+ years of bike fit self analysis ..

A lot depends on core strength too. For me, as I am a heavier rider, I have to make adjustments every so often to the fit as my weight goes down, and my fitness level goes up.

In the Peter White article he refers to moving the saddle FORWARD to achieve this, which suggests a more upright position. In contrast I often see people here suggesting a lower, more "aero" position to achieve the "easily lift your hands off the bars" thing which is even something the op refers to.

Personally I think a lot of this comes down to riding styles and flexibility. I've found that if my butt and hands are happy on long rides most everything else falls into place.

I tried adjusting my seat like this and it seems to work for me. I adjusted both bikes this way and was really happy with how it felt during initial test rides. This is with pedals parallel and the back muscles supporting the torso. If the seat is farther forward I tip forward because my center of gravity is in front of the pedals. With my center of gravity over the pedals, I feel like I can push down at the right angle using the right muscles.

Interestingly, this adjustment required shoving the seat on one bike almost all the way back and replacing the seat post on the other bike so I could shove it even farther forward. For the first time, I'm really happy with how both bikes feel.

The article does say that this is just a starting position and you might have to further adjust it based on riding style, preferences, etc.

I think it's hard to understand how simple this concept is. So as the Peter White article explains, as you bend over, your butt goes back. This doesn't mean that it takes no force to support your torso when you bend over. So stand up and bend over. See how that feels? Your back makes a very slight effort to support your torso. That's what it should feel like when you take your hands off the bars. Nowhere is it said that you shouldn't be putting any weight in the pedals. In fact, you're really supposed to do this hands off test while pedaling on a trainer. The idea is that you shouldn't slide forward off the saddle with the pedals slightly weighted and most of the weight on your butt.

A little experimentation will show you that you'll be able to take your hands off the bars over quite a wide range of saddle adjustment. So now what? What's right?

Well, I do exactly what Peter tells you not to do: I drop a plumb bob from the bony protrusion below my kneecap to intersect the center of the pedal axle. For me, and everyone I've done this with, that has given the perfect hands-off weight distribution. If you need your saddle further back to get that weight distribution, move it back. If it feels too far back, move it forward and take your hands off again. But at least it's a starting point.