Helix Update?
12-22-17, 12:09 PM
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@Richard Lee Kickstarter t&c clearly state they do not give refunds. They clearly state they do not promise delivery of a product. I'm curious as to whether you have experience with receiving a refund from KS, given that they pass-through the funds to the devs and do not keep the funds.
12-22-17, 04:11 PM
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Okay, the secret is out.
Free of obligations, Richard starts to reveal all.
KS per se may not give refunds. But apparently, there is a mechanism in KS by which a project starter can refund a backer. A full refund too, not necessarily the amount collected after KS takes their cut. This may not be well known which why I said KS aficionados (only) may be aware of it. I don't know the inner workings of a refund, like if there is a fees and schtuff between KS and the project starter. But the refund process definitely can be initiated by the project starter.
After my departure (actually more like an ousting) I expected Helix to send a partial refund (pledge - KS fee) by PayPal or maybe a good old fashion cheque (check to you Yanks) by postal mail. To my surprise, I received an auto-notification email from KS saying a refund has been forwarded to my original method of payment (and instructions what to do if that did not exist any longer). The refund appeared on my credit card balance a couple business days later.
Again, I'd point out that my case is unusual.
KS per se may not give refunds. But apparently, there is a mechanism in KS by which a project starter can refund a backer. A full refund too, not necessarily the amount collected after KS takes their cut. This may not be well known which why I said KS aficionados (only) may be aware of it. I don't know the inner workings of a refund, like if there is a fees and schtuff between KS and the project starter. But the refund process definitely can be initiated by the project starter.
After my departure (actually more like an ousting) I expected Helix to send a partial refund (pledge - KS fee) by PayPal or maybe a good old fashion cheque (check to you Yanks) by postal mail. To my surprise, I received an auto-notification email from KS saying a refund has been forwarded to my original method of payment (and instructions what to do if that did not exist any longer). The refund appeared on my credit card balance a couple business days later.
Again, I'd point out that my case is unusual.
12-22-17, 04:17 PM
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Free of obligations, Richard starts to reveal all.
KS per se may not give refunds. But apparently, there is a mechanism in KS by which a project starter can refund a backer. A full refund too, not necessarily the amount collected after KS takes their cut. This may not be well known which why I said KS aficionados (only) may be aware of it. I don't know the inner workings of a refund, like if there is a fees and schtuff between KS and the project starter. But the refund process definitely can be initiated by the project starter.
After my departure (actually more like an ousting) I expected Helix to send a partial refund (pledge - KS fee) by PayPal or maybe a good old fashion cheque (check to you Yanks) by postal mail. To my surprise, I received an auto-notification email from KS saying a refund has been forwarded to my original method of payment (and instructions what to do if that did not exist any longer). The refund appeared on my credit card balance a couple business days later.
Again, I'd point out that my case is unusual.
KS per se may not give refunds. But apparently, there is a mechanism in KS by which a project starter can refund a backer. A full refund too, not necessarily the amount collected after KS takes their cut. This may not be well known which why I said KS aficionados (only) may be aware of it. I don't know the inner workings of a refund, like if there is a fees and schtuff between KS and the project starter. But the refund process definitely can be initiated by the project starter.
After my departure (actually more like an ousting) I expected Helix to send a partial refund (pledge - KS fee) by PayPal or maybe a good old fashion cheque (check to you Yanks) by postal mail. To my surprise, I received an auto-notification email from KS saying a refund has been forwarded to my original method of payment (and instructions what to do if that did not exist any longer). The refund appeared on my credit card balance a couple business days later.
Again, I'd point out that my case is unusual.
great c/c karma!
12-22-17, 04:22 PM
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Was your refund voluntarily performed by the project starter? Maybe that's it.
12-22-17, 04:49 PM
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The project starter told me to start a chargeback because he could not refund me without losing 30% (I guess KS keeps their share no matter what). I have no way of knowing if it is really 30% or if that was b.s. It escalated all the way to Amex's CEO. No luck. I'm guessing your project starter ate those KS fees, whatever they are, for your refund.
12-22-17, 05:02 PM
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Even with a powerful ally like the the CEO of Amex, KS would not bend a little. It's probably because once successfully funded, the money has been forwarded to the project starter, ie. really out of KS's filthy hands.
How did you receive your refund...chargeback to Amex from the project starter through the KS mechanism, chargeback to Amex directly from the project starter, PayPal, check, bank transfer....? In any case, even via KS interface, obviously the project starter has control over the amount refunded as evidenced by the our different experience.
The only good thing for a project starter to refund via KS is that there is a formal record the backer is not legally owed anything. I suppose a KS backer is not legally owed anything in the first place after pledging and successful funding. The only remedy in case of dispute being civil court individually or a good ol' class action.
How did you receive your refund...chargeback to Amex from the project starter through the KS mechanism, chargeback to Amex directly from the project starter, PayPal, check, bank transfer....? In any case, even via KS interface, obviously the project starter has control over the amount refunded as evidenced by the our different experience.
The only good thing for a project starter to refund via KS is that there is a formal record the backer is not legally owed anything. I suppose a KS backer is not legally owed anything in the first place after pledging and successful funding. The only remedy in case of dispute being civil court individually or a good ol' class action.
12-23-17, 01:20 AM
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Yes, it is a beautiful bike! Test bike going out first week of January!
(P.s.: manufacturing the rear swing arm is what delayed the project for over two years. Issues such as the swing arm geometry and tubing thickness were too complex for any robot welding subcontractor to reasonably manufacture cost effectively as they wanted 7 figures with a one year lead time, so Helix built their own welding chamber and leased their own robot welder instead. Hand welding would be too complicated and slow because of all the gas shielding that would be required.)
(P.s.: manufacturing the rear swing arm is what delayed the project for over two years. Issues such as the swing arm geometry and tubing thickness were too complex for any robot welding subcontractor to reasonably manufacture cost effectively as they wanted 7 figures with a one year lead time, so Helix built their own welding chamber and leased their own robot welder instead. Hand welding would be too complicated and slow because of all the gas shielding that would be required.)
Last edited by spambait11; 12-23-17 at 01:56 AM.
12-23-17, 03:52 AM
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I believe Kickstarter fees are between 5-10% depending on the country and currency.
Thanks
Yan
Thanks
Yan
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12-23-17, 07:09 AM
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Yes, it is a beautiful bike! Test bike going out first week of January!
(P.s.: manufacturing the rear swing arm is what delayed the project for over two years. Issues such as the swing arm geometry and tubing thickness were too complex for any robot welding subcontractor to reasonably manufacture cost effectively as they wanted 7 figures with a one year lead time, so Helix built their own welding chamber and leased their own robot welder instead. Hand welding would be too complicated and slow because of all the gas shielding that would be required.)
(P.s.: manufacturing the rear swing arm is what delayed the project for over two years. Issues such as the swing arm geometry and tubing thickness were too complex for any robot welding subcontractor to reasonably manufacture cost effectively as they wanted 7 figures with a one year lead time, so Helix built their own welding chamber and leased their own robot welder instead. Hand welding would be too complicated and slow because of all the gas shielding that would be required.)
Joke aside, well done!
Can't wait to see it roll, I'm super rooting for KS backers to be satisfied!
Last edited by RatonLaveur; 12-23-17 at 07:14 AM.
12-23-17, 07:33 AM
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Also...
Update 12/09/2017: "The wait is almost over, in the next update we will be posting our anticipated manufacturing and delivery schedule."
Update 12/23/2017: "After contacting the custom parts suppliers, the manufacturing and delivery schedule should be posted next week.
Maybe it'd be best if Peter learned underpromising and overdelivering.
Update 12/09/2017: "The wait is almost over, in the next update we will be posting our anticipated manufacturing and delivery schedule."
Update 12/23/2017: "After contacting the custom parts suppliers, the manufacturing and delivery schedule should be posted next week.
Maybe it'd be best if Peter learned underpromising and overdelivering.
Last edited by DaKineDatFolds; 12-24-17 at 08:06 AM.
12-23-17, 07:44 AM
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Good morning everyone (it's Saturday morning after sunrise in this part of the world), after noon or evening as applicable. Sounds like something really exciting happened.
spambait11, by rear swing arm, does that mean the entire rear triangle or that small but very important helical hinge and/or mechanisms surrounding it?
Yan, that's certainly less shocking than 30%. Nevertheless, I suppose one should be thankful that Peter refunded me everything including what KS had already grabbed. So maybe I'm not going to be such a bad boy and snitch everything after all, muhahahaha.
Yeah me too...sigh.
Yeah me too...sigh.
Last edited by RichardLee; 12-23-17 at 07:50 AM.
12-23-17, 09:33 AM
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The kickstarter fees are listed at https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees. It seems they are between 8% and 10% for most countries.
Thanks,
Yan
Thanks,
Yan
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12-23-17, 10:44 AM
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The kickstarter fees are listed at https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees. It seems they are between 8% and 10% for most countries.
Thanks,
Yan
Thanks,
Yan
12-23-17, 11:16 AM
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Well, grrr....that makes me even more pissed off at the idiot developer I funded, he lied as well. Not that I am the only one (but one of the few who got money back at all). Oh, well. Really exciting to see the Helix come to fruition and I'm hoping it far exceeds the backer's expectations. Pics once they are out there, please.
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12-23-17, 11:48 AM
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The test bike really does look great! There is also a nice picture of the Helix Team behind the test bike frame pieces.
12-23-17, 11:58 AM
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UrbanX or Urbanext (bmw made them change the name) is the kit I had backed to work as an interim solution until the Shareroller gets released. Should have just waited and done nothing.
12-23-17, 12:26 PM
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Good morning everyone (it's Saturday morning after sunrise in this part of the world), after noon or evening as applicable. Sounds like something really exciting happened.
spambait11, by rear swing arm, does that mean the entire rear triangle or that small but very important helical hinge and/or mechanisms surrounding it?
spambait11, by rear swing arm, does that mean the entire rear triangle or that small but very important helical hinge and/or mechanisms surrounding it?
The triangular supports for the rear swing arm are longer making the rear swing arm look much more, well, triangular which makes the overall design of the bike look more aesthetically pleasing. He’s also given the backers a Ti seatpost.
Looking forward to riding this bike!
Last edited by spambait11; 12-23-17 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Clarification
12-23-17, 12:27 PM
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12-23-17, 12:28 PM
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I'm glad I decided not to get on board with any of the campaigns that had interested me,...this is too much of a gamble. Eon is a prime example of a con man getting away with MURDER!!!
Eon Electric Kick Scooter - is it for real, or another clever scam like VOMO?
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12-23-17, 01:02 PM
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That's it!!! I backed Shareroller, and I got a 100% refund. Thanks!!!
I'm glad I decided not to get on board with any of the campaigns that had interested me,...this is too much of a gamble. Eon is a prime example of a con man getting away with MURDER!!!
Eon Electric Kick Scooter - is it for real, or another clever scam like VOMO?
I'm glad I decided not to get on board with any of the campaigns that had interested me,...this is too much of a gamble. Eon is a prime example of a con man getting away with MURDER!!!
Eon Electric Kick Scooter - is it for real, or another clever scam like VOMO?
I'm happy waiting for his kit whenever I get it. Just be glad you didn't buy into UrbanX, what a disaster. I now have a $50 KS limit, lol.
12-23-17, 02:35 PM
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I spent $10, or something of that order, on a crowd-funded book which is nowhere to be seen. I am glad my lesson was so much cheaper 
12-23-17, 04:25 PM
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While this is a happy occasion for Helix backers, looks like many need to vent off frustrations with Kickstarter and probably other crowdfunders.
I received this response from KS in regards to an inquiry I made a while ago, in part here:
Note there is nothing, at least in the response to my inquiry, about whether the refund is for the full pledge amount. Refund is not what I had asked about it the first place.
More importantly, since they rely on a system of trust and don't step into the process itself, that's weasel words meaning Kickstarter is about as useful as eBay of yesteryear when it come to issues. As middlemen, they take their 8 - 10%, which is about the same as eBay, but then provide no protection nor arbitration services once the campaign is over.
To add a little to what I wrote in #731, there are 2 kinds of remedies. (a) If clearly there is misrepresentation and fraud, it is a criminal case and law enforcement must get involved. That's when KS gets off their lazy backs. (b) If the project starter has demonstrated reasonable due diligence in trying to fulfill advertised objectives, and the other party is not satisfied, then it's civil court. Of course, what constitutes reasonable due diligence is up in the air. KS sure doesn't care unless cops come knocking on their door.
I received this response from KS in regards to an inquiry I made a while ago, in part here:
Our site operates on a system of trust – we expect and encourage creators to be honest with their backers. While we provide a platform for creators to fund their projects, we don’t step into the process itself or manage the fulfillment or refund process.
If you haven’t already, it might be helpful to read through our Terms of use, which outlines the responsibilities of backers and creators. Specifically, here is a section that applies to creators:
"You can refund individual pledges if you want. After your project has been funded, you can cancel and refund a backer’s pledge at any time. If you do, you have no further obligation to that specific backer, and no agreement exists between you."
If you haven’t already, it might be helpful to read through our Terms of use, which outlines the responsibilities of backers and creators. Specifically, here is a section that applies to creators:
"You can refund individual pledges if you want. After your project has been funded, you can cancel and refund a backer’s pledge at any time. If you do, you have no further obligation to that specific backer, and no agreement exists between you."
More importantly, since they rely on a system of trust and don't step into the process itself, that's weasel words meaning Kickstarter is about as useful as eBay of yesteryear when it come to issues. As middlemen, they take their 8 - 10%, which is about the same as eBay, but then provide no protection nor arbitration services once the campaign is over.
To add a little to what I wrote in #731, there are 2 kinds of remedies. (a) If clearly there is misrepresentation and fraud, it is a criminal case and law enforcement must get involved. That's when KS gets off their lazy backs. (b) If the project starter has demonstrated reasonable due diligence in trying to fulfill advertised objectives, and the other party is not satisfied, then it's civil court. Of course, what constitutes reasonable due diligence is up in the air. KS sure doesn't care unless cops come knocking on their door.
Last edited by RichardLee; 12-23-17 at 05:09 PM.