I've got a Bike Friday NWT, which I love, but need something that folds much smaller and easier, like a Brompton. I'm buying a used and small sports car this week and need something that fits in the trunk.
Another item VERY high on the wish list is some reasonable gear range, as I plan on using it in San Francisco occasionally.

Looking at a 2014 Brompton M6R currently on Marketplace. He wants $1500 but we've discussed $1300 already. The seller has put a lot of $$ into it for his ergonomics, but you know, you can't recover that kind of expense in a resell (believe me, I know! I've sold 80+ bikes). Haven't seen it yet, because it will involve about a 2-hour round trip, but appears to be a low-mileage bike.

He says it is good for touring and that he's done a fully-loaded tour in the mountains. Any opinions about the range of this 6-speed. Or this price? It seems uncomfortably close to what they sold for new, but of course, whatever the market will bear. I know Bromptons are special, but in general, the bike market has died a horrible death post-pandemic. People are selling bikes here for less that it would cost to replace the tires, so my flipping is over.

Very interested in other folders that have reasonably good ergos and some gear range. My BF has both in spades! It is indeed a bike you could tour with. Long and stable with a triple crank. Not planning on touring, or loading this down, but SF has some very serious hills!

Ideally, I'd like to buy something around $1K.

I don't have first hand experience, but some of the Brompton clones seem to have pretty decent feedback. Mint from Alibaba or Takachia from some shop in Singapore. They have external gearing, so probably a better range than the typical 3-6 speed Brompton.

Dahon's Curl folds about as small as the Brompton, but I'm not sure they were ever sold in the US. Good luck finding a used one.

Or just drive a hard bargain on a used Brompton.

Understand that gear range is not a strong suit of Brompton. I love Brompton and own one. If I could only own one bike it would be the Brompton. However, loaded touring? You may need to modify it.

Consider a Birdy. It is larger fold but has a derailleur. You may have to up your budget.

Look at the gear ranges of 6 speed Bromptons and decide if you can do it.

There's a plethora of compact 16" bi-folds that are a credible alternatives, take a RD and:

• offer a greater gearing range than a Brompton,
• are lighter,
• much less expensive,
• carry zero proprietary parts and
• take the cushier, more comfortable ETRTO305 wheel size.
• Don't flex and can be more efficient due to having no suspension

I myself have even toured on such rigs. No, you don't need a BF or Brompton to tour long distance on a folding bike.


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​​​​​​FnHon Gust 16"




You just have to take off your own blinders (and stop taking advice from the unimaginative, parochial, two-trick Brompton & BF pony channel gurus here) to see that there are actually a lot of credible, competent alternatives to a Brompton. Here's another example:


Litepro Spyder, build-in-progress with an 11-40T dish in the back

SF hills and climbing? No sweat. These rigs can be set up for very steep climbs indeed.


3000masl+ volcano in the background


In the clouds at 1,300masl

Origami sells something similar in the U.S.

Gotta say, I'm impressed with those cassettes. Definitely not planning on touring on a Brompton or BF, or anything else (I coincidentally picked up a Trek touring bike yesterday). Just want to putt around Santa Cruz or San Francisco or wherever I'm visiting. When I look at Marketplace I mainly see Dahon, and rarely, Brompton or BF.
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I will expand my search. I was looking at Brompton because I had heard it was the best folder. The only time I've been on one was a bike show and it felt twitcher than my NWT, but don't know what model I was on. I don't need the best, just need it to fit in a trunk. This will be a low mileage bike for me.

My Bike Friday New World Tourist. Love this bike.

Touring is a litmus test of day-in-day-out reliability, capability and comfort. That's why I bring it up.

The sole aspect where Brompton is best is folded size. That's it. Don't believe the hype.

Small wheelers are more nimble, maneuverable, agile, yes. They are a lot of fun, actually. Twitchy? Surely, you are experienced and fit enough to get accustomed, adjust to and master their unique characteristics. Remember, the jockey is still paramount.

You'll find that there are loveable folding bikes at all price levels and country of origin. They don't all hail from London, Oregon or Germany, or need cost an arm and a leg. Regrettably, this view is far from mainstream on this channel where the resident experts fall over themselves time and time again to suggest in the first instance the most expensive, boutique bikes.
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You should first define what is the folded size you need.

You will then know if you need a folding bike with the folded size of the Brompton.

The Brompton (and Dahon Curl) are smaller than all other folding bikes and folds very easily, this is their main advantage.

For the gear inch range, stock Brompton (even the latest 12s) have a limited range: about 300% for the 6s, about 400% for the 12s.

The recent 12s that exists only on the high end P-line and T-line will cost much more than 1000USD.

Its also possible to upgrade a Brompton with a Rohloff 14s IGH to have 526% but its also expensive (the Rohloff hub alone cost much more than 1000USD)..

Mine is one the early ones (1991?), got it for $200 from a neighbor. That and the price of a B17 and a pair of Schwalbe Marathons and I have this very fine ride. For me, spending a thousand on a used bike would be very extravagant indeed.

Wow you have one of the (I assume) older NWTs! Or maybe that's a Diamond Llama? In any case - you got a great deal on a good bike. The fact that it's over 30 years old and still being used is a testament to the original design and quality!

What kind of car, btw, will the bike need to fit in? I'm guessing Miata?

I also have a Zizzo Liberte bifold. It's a fine bike for around town. I've even taken it on longer rider, about ~27 around the perimeter of Washington DC. As much as I like it, it doesn't have the same ride quality as a Bike Friday. It does fold smaller though but not significantly so. And I'm not sure if the stock gearing is low enough for San Francisco. It is just 23# though, which is cool.

You've said this several times here, but you've never said why or how the ride quality is different or worse. In one puzzling instance, you said its ride was "agrarian". What? 🤔



The other part of this is that you haven't said how and whether you've attempted to improve its ride quality. Nowadays in 2025 there's a myriad ways of improving fitment, performance and ride quality on a folding bike. It's as if you've given in to this fatalist determination.

Finally, the other potential issue is psychological. I am talking about a cognitive bias, about expectation bias. You've been bombarded with the hype about BF and its unrivalled "ride quality" and you even bought one at $2,700. You are now invested, financially and figuratively, in this belief. It would be quite the cognitive dissonance if the cheap Chinese, mass produced bike rides comparably well so you scupper the thought outright. You are invested, after all.

Look, I've ridden smaller, inexpensive 16" folders that have been characterized here by your channel peers as cheap Asiatic trash over 100km (65 miles) several times, loaded while on tour. It's not a big deal.. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do likewise comfortably and competently on the likes of a Zizzo or why you need a BF (or Brompton or Birdy) for a bike that rides well. I have shown amply and repeatedly that an inexpensive bi-fold will do.
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Unless, of course, the fundamental problem not is the bikes, but rather the common element to both your BF and the Zizzo: you, the jockey. 😉 If you are unable or unwilling to ride the likes of a Zizzo more than 25 miles and require a custom boutique job costing upwards of $2,000, the problem, the impediment is not the the bike. The problem, the impediment is you, and if so, frankly you ain't in a position to be dispensing any sort of sensible advice. That goes for your other channel peers too.

Maybe the cognitive bias is on your side due to your low prices obsession about everything you buy or do, travel, lodging, food, bike parts, bike frames..., every time you show something, you give its price.

You should forget the price and ride an All-Packa and a Birdy before saying that they are equivalent to your 16" Chinese bi-fold and 20" FSIR!

As my grandmother used to say: the price is forgotten, the quality remains. And also : I am not rich enough to buy crap.

Bromptons are no longer rare, I think they upped their production in recent years by 7-8X. So there is no need to pay anywhere close to new price for a used one, and every reason not to, because you can't know the condition of the internal gear hub at purchase, and service of them is expensive, when you can find a shop to do so.

You don't need huge gear range, I think 400% gearing is sufficient, 21 gear inch low will get up up most hills without a big cargo load, and 85 gear inches is high enough to pedal down gentle grades, and steeper than that you just coast. Looking online now, it says Brompton 6 speeds are 300% gearing, I don't know exactly but I think about 30-90 gear inches. That's about what my Dahon Speed D7 came with, and it wasn't enough for hilly cities like SF and Seattle, I upgraded it to 400% and it's the best thing I ever did, should have done years earlier.

20" wheel bifolds (fold in half at the frame) are common and good cost, many on here have raved about the Zizzo Liberte and other models, but like my Dahon, have limited gearing. They also don't fold as small as a Brompton C-Line (16"/349 wheels). If your car is like a Miata NA (first model), I don't think a bifold will fit in the trunk. Do tell.

There are many Brompton clones at good prices in Asia, it's the shipping here at $300 cost that bumps the price up. Brompton has a good reputation for quality, so for a clone (aka brompnot), I personally would not pay more than 1/3 the cost of the genuine original.

But first, determine your gearing needs, by checking the gearing specs on a normal bike.

Second, what are your braking needs? Do rim brakes work for your riding conditions and terrain, or are your other bikes disc brakes?

I would be very hesitant to recommend a 305 wheel folder to a male unless he is short enough to fit. My guess is that at least half the male population would not really fit. Most males of European descent are too tall. Even the Zizzo is somewhat problematic for me and it was designed for Europeans. Bike shops that carry small folders like this are few and far between here so you can't really even try them first.

The reason why I mentioned the Brompton and Birdy are they fold small and fit most. They are expensive and that is a downside.

Smaller, actually.
From 2017 into the COVID years.
Dahon makes a lot of 16" wheel models, but someone in their N.A. operation decided they would quit importing them. They've had some K3+ models in the warehouse for a couple of years; I'm sure they'd love to sell you one of those. Hmm...you might find a Dahon Curve on the used market.

I've got a Miata and a Dahon Curl. You can take the bike, or you can take the spare tire.

I never saw any shop selling Zizzo in Europe!

I don't think that this brand is selling bikes in Europe?

For the ETRTO305 folding bikes, you are right they have usually a very short frame that doesn't fit for most US and European cyclists.

They were first selling under the name EuroMini, I do not know if they were sold in Europe. They later changed their name to Zizzo due to trademark issues with the name EuroMini,...

Yep. I think (not certain) that starting with the NB (2nd gen) Miata, they may have put the spare low and flat into a sunk compartment with a piece of masonite over the top and then trunk carpet, like many cars, leaving a nice flat cargo area, but I still don't know if you can fit a bifold. Probably a Curl or Brom'. But it's a compact spare, and if you have to change a tire, the full-size might not fit, so you're screwed if you have a folder in the trunk. A lot of cars were like this, couldn't fit the full-size flat tire. One reason I started carrying a plug kit, and also because it's so much easier to plug and pump up versus changing the tire.

As a Brit who has owned four Bromptons over the last nearly 30 years, I can probably assure you that the hub gear is probably the most reliable moving part on the bike. My Grandfather was riding bikes with Sturmey Archer hub gears back in the 1930s, and I could show you an antique shop nearby that has a 1950s unrestored bike with a working SA hub. The whole point of them is that they are reliable and are protected from the weather & dust and the only maintenance needed is little more than a few drops of oil once in a while. It is a tried and tested technology that is over a century old, and I'm pretty certain there are plenty of 1950s SA hubs still going strong in the bits of India and Africa that we invaded.

I have never had to pay for anybody to do work on a Sturmey Archer hub because they are bulletproof. I was once faced with a very early 1980s Brompton that had a (briefly-made) five-speed hub with gear cables coming out of both sides of the hub and despite being unable to find out anything about it, it took me less than five minutes to set it up despite it being unused for 20 years.

That's the gear issue sorted, now onto whether a Brompton is good for touring. I would probably say 'not' unless the rider is fairly short/light, and the suspension is stiffened up a bit. They excel as city / multi-mode commuter travel, but they flex too much, IMO, for long distances. The issue is the long seat post and the rear suspension. On the few occasions when there has been disruption to the trains in and out of London, I have resorted to riding the Brompton (many versions, including a part-titanium one) to get home. Long rides on them just become tiresome, and London is flat. I know they CAN be ridden long distances (people ride them on the annual London to Brighton charity ride - about 50 miles), but in my experience, it just isn't pleasurable. The gear range on a 6-speed is 'okay' in general, and I have gotten up some pretty steep hills, but nothing like I imagine SF to be like.

Yes, but I think you missed my point: There are currently on craigslist, used Bromptons selling for list new price. No matter how good a condition, it lacks the original warranty for a used buyer. And yet back in the day, they sold, because it was hard to get a Brompton due to much more limited supply in the USA. But now there are retailers in my town, each with at least a dozen examples on hand in a big range of colors, with more at their distributer or via direct from Brompton. So in my opinion, one should not buy any used bicycle that is commonly available, unless it's selling for 50% of new price, due to lack of warranty, and yes, just a bit due to any unknowns on the IGH, usually any problem would be a lot of use in rain without sufficient grease and oil. They are extremely reliable and tolerant of neglect, but that doesn't mean zero damage. Same for derailleur gearing, but on that, everything is out in the open to inspect. Only thing that could not be fixed cheap would be if the bearing cups are pitted from corrosion, and those can't be inspected at purchase, but might be felt by fingers spinning axle, or a very slight felt rumble when coasting on the bike.

Same for Dahons now; A Mariner used to be $500. The price doubled over the pandemic and never went back down, they are $950 new now. So someone on craigslist selling a used one is now asking $500. Except now you can get a new Zizzo Liberte for $500, nearly identical design and equal quality, and with full warranty, so no reason to spend the same cash on a used bike. As for buying new from Dahon, they are still selling as the Mariner is a well-known name. But sales are declining, as word of excellent competitors gets around.

The Cycle UK Technical forum indicates plenty of very old SA hubs clockworking around England itself. My own early-1940s AW just needs a little oil now and again.

Facebook: Brompton Touring Group, ~20K members. Great fun to follow along on Bromptonauts' tours in every nook and cranny of the world.

Most of those folks wouldn't know an alternative to the Brompton if one fell on them so they can hardly be considered credible arbiters or discriminating consumers That's certainly my actual experience when encountering Brompton owners on and off the road. They are genuinely surprised, indeed perplexed at seeing a simple 16" bi-fold touring competently, long-distance. They literally have no idea (or clue). Even more surprised when you tell them the price.

But you need not go out in the real world to find clueless Brompton faithful. Here on this very channel, heck, on this very thread, we witness the same inbred, unimaginative parochialism and ignorance regarding viable alternatives among the resident chattering class.

And the most puzzling part of this is that tcs himself has been the frequent object of this ignorance, frequently needing to correct Brompton owners about the characteristics and features of his Dahon Curl relative to the former.
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Well... I'll grant you that a lot of Brom' owners may only know Brom'; Dahon continues to sell Mariners because it is a very well known model among those not hardcore bike-knowledgeable. The power of marketing and market presence.

That said, while Broms are a bit too premium priced, IMO, and may face challenges going forward due to that... it's not a bad bike. I haven't ridden one, but the compactness of the fold on the 349 models, and most especially, the drivetrain folding to the inside, are great features and their calling card. That said...

The Dahon Curl D9 appears to be a superior product, offering both of the above, plus discs and an easily serviceable 9 speed derailleur drivetrain. What happened to it in the marketplace, vaporwear, is anyone's guess, it will be interesting if ever learned. The Curl i4 was available for a time, that would seem to rule out IP issues, and is still displayed on Dahon USA's homepage, though not actually available for sale. I can't judge the price competitiveness of the D9 because it was never for sale here, but if it was priced like a Brompton, I think that was a missed opportunity. But even at 2/3 Brompton price, perhaps Dahon looked at the price of Brompton clones and decided to throw in the towel before they ever got in the ring with the D9.

If someone gave me a Brompton or clone, or Curl i4 or D9, I would definitely not turn it down. I'd still ride 20"/406 locally and loaded touring, but for flight touring light, I'd bring the 349 trifold.