For several years I thought the investment of US$1K+ on a folding bike was silly. To avoid that path, I tried a Giant Halfway, a Giant Halfway FS, a Downtube FS, a Downtube Mini, A Dahon Curve, an upgraded Curve SL and a Super Merc. The only thing that I ended up avoiding was a good bike to ride and an excellent bike to fold.

I am not married to my Brompton, but I am yet to find something that can match its qualities. Even with the super power of unlimited budget, there is nothing out there that can be a better fit for my needs.

There's definitely resentment, but I think you're misunderstanding where it's coming from. Your post a perfect example of the way that Brompton owners seem to think that the only reason other people wouldn't buy a Brompton is because we don't want to lay down the cash or jump through the hoops Brompton Co lays out for the enlightened few who think that they're design is the holy grail of folders. This attitude is just snotty and that's what makes the rest of us a bit angry.

Believe it or not the Brompton is not desired by everybody. Believe it or not some people just think it's overrated and find it terribly insulting when elitist Brompton owners like yourself smugly imply that we're secretly jealous. It reminds me of how Apple computer customers "congratulate" each other upon purchasing a new Apple as if it were a forgone conclusion that every individual in recorded history that ever chose to spend a single cent on anything else is simply a buffoon. Why can't you just respect the fact that your brand of choice doesn't meet the needs of some people as well as it does yours? Why can't you just accept that what's best for you might not be best for someone else?

Meanwhile for the last two years a certain competitor has been offering an electric version of their folder which, even with the motor, is smaller and lighter than the regular biomechanical Brompton. Yet, in the minds of Brompton fanatics, Brompton will always be the best no matter how poorly it compares!


The Brompton is certainly unique and if it fits your needs, then bingo you've found your bike. But it's not the only bike out there with unmatched qualities, so as much as it works for you there are other bikes which are just as ideal for other people with different circumstances, needs, and/or preferences.

Personally on a bike with a stringent fold I don't need:
-Extra gears.
-Suitcase compatibility.
but I do need:
-Lighter weight.
-Smaller footprint.

On the other hand, on a bike with a less stringent fold I need:
-More gears.
-More tire selection.
-Lower, cheaper maintenance.
-Lockability.

"Believe it or not the Brompton is not desired by everybody."

Here, here. I, for example have gone for the CarryMe. However, if I was going more Brompton size I'd prefer a Dahon Mu Uno because my taste is to simplicity - I find that more beautiful than the Brompton - more simple. I like simple. The brompton for me folds in too many places and I always admire designs than reduce this down somehow - less moving parts.

I completely agree.

If someone is looking for a performance oriented bike with some limited folding capabilities, Bike Friday or even the non-foldable but detachable Moulton might be way better than the Brompton.

If someone is looking for an afordable bike that would fit inside some limited space like a closet or (pick another example of limited space like a boat, RV, small trunk of a vehicle, etc.), a Downtube, Citizen bike or even a Blitz might be way better than a Brompton.

If someone is looking for something slightly faster than walking to be used on perfect pavement, carry-me might be better than a Brompton.

The list goes on. Pretty much ANY bike is better than a Brompton, unless, like myself, one is in need of:

1-Riding geometry close to a conventional bike (excluse Carry-me, Strida and any other bike with unusual riding position)

2-Folded size than can fit inside internationally accepted luggage without major disassembly (exclude all bikes with excellent riding geometry, close to perfect performance like Bike Friday, Alex Moulton bikes, etc...)

3-practical, easy-to-handle final product when folded.


20 minutes to put a bike together for a bike ride is not that big of a deal. Well, FOR SOME. Because for me, when I had to put together a Downtube 40 times in 10 days (that was 2 cities a day, 160 minutes a day playing mechanic. That is 7 hours that I should be riding the bike, not assemblying it) it really compromises the fun.

I had a chance to pick a cab with a Downtube on my lap once (had a flat in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil). Not a good experience. I had a chance to pick a cab with a Brompton on my lap in Bogotá, Colombia. if the out-of-the-luggage capability wasn't the unique selling value of the Brompton for me, this ability (to fit on my lap without being a major inconvenience) would.

What's up with the small wheel bias? After hearing similar comments about the Brompton, surely you know that wheel size doesn't have much influence on speed or pavement ability. My Carryme is just as fast as any other singlespeed bike without aerobars and even after 5+ years of riding I have not had a single incident where it couldn't tackle the pavement (despite potholes bad enough to knock me off full size wheeled bikes if not clipped in). Also the ride geometry's basically the same as a conventional small size compact road bike, except it's possible to ride a smaller bike than you normally would due to the lack of toe/wheel overlap. Conventional geometry is one of the things which distinguishes the Carryme from the Strida, IMO.

What the Carryme doesn't have are sizes for larger riders, extra gears (particularly high ones...even the two speed employs the limits of bike technology to achieve moderate gearing), and suitcase-ability (couldn't fit a walking cane in a suitcase either...wrong shape). The point is that although the Brompton has these things, it makes certain compromises to achieve them, which may or may not be worth it depending on the rider and their body dimensions, preferences, and very particular uses.

Personally I'd rather just ride than suffer even the minor inconvenience created by the Brompton. So if I'm going to make compromises then the end result better be convenient enough to carry on my lap even when I don't anticipate riding at all. That's why I don't want a Brompton: because a jack of all trades is a master of none and when you can get two masters for the price of one jack, forgoing the jack is a no-brainer.

The small wheel bias comes from near death experiences riding in traffic outside the USA. Wheel size doesn't have much influence on speed, but it has HUGE impact on pavement ability.

Please take a look at the following images:





Do you believe a person riding a 700c road bike would have some advantage going from A to B under these conditions over someone, let's say, riding a skateboard?

I am in the market for something that is a conventional bike replacement with Brompton folding capabilities. I just can't find it.

Small wheels do work OK. But check out cycling in any big city, worldwide: 90+% people prefer full sized bikes.
Check out the iF development sequence:

and specifically:

Full sized wheel behind super compact Brompton.
This shows that full-sized wheels are compact enough.
BUT still low down, needing to be lifted and carried - So add a handle and roll it ............


Please excuse the cheap plug (ok not that cheap :-) > https://www.pacific-cycles.com/

Believe it or not those have a striking resemblance to the roads by my old apartment on which I road my Carryme all the time. It sucked, but I can't say it was much better on 20" wheels...and certainly no worse than 700x23c wheels. Skateboards and most other small wheeled devices are different because:
1. They don't have pneumatic tires.
2. Ultra short wheelbases and bolt upright body positions mean you can't lean forwards or backwards as hard as you can on a bike. By alternating weight between front and rear tire a bike can almost "walk" over things...especially if the wheels are light and the frame is rigid (which the Brompton isn't). Most importantly a bike also allows you to maintain forward propulsion while implementing such hard leaning which is essential when going over things like cobble stones because no matter what your wheel size you need momentum to get over the bumps.

Think about it, even MTB 29er wheels have tiny contact patches which only bridge the smallest gaps. Everything else requires lifting the mass of the rider up over the obstruction which primarily comes from momentum and leaning. I don't doubt that large wheels help slide up a bit better, but IME the effect is rather small and unimportant at normal cycling speeds/momentums. Alex Moulton had it right when he noted that there's a reason most vehicles evolve towards smaller wheels...their disadvantages are far less significant than most people think.

But we're getting off topic. One of the advantages of the Brompton is it's nice long wheelbase, which I agree is very good for riding longer distances and over rougher terrain, but for shorter distances I think a much lighter bike with a shorter wheelbase is better (not to mention more convenient to fold).

Vestiges of the Ordinary bicycle. I'm sure you also know that 9/10 people also think that smaller wheels require "more pedaling" (as most of them put it). Most people just aren't capable of the cognitive leap which led to the safety bicycle. Therefore, they will choose the largest wheel which doesn't have any other obvious disadvantages (not too high off the ground, weight distribution which lends easy balance/steering, etc).

Of course, as a designer/businessman, that's what you have to live with, but as an individual the misunderstanding of 90% of the world has absolutely no bearing on my personal opinion that 20" wheels are the best size for general riding with wheels far smaller than that striking the best compromises in compactness etc.


While I personally agree, I think 14Rs primary requirement is easily packing the bike into a suitcase. So for him a bike designed around a handle which only makes it more difficult to get into a suitcase isn't going to work.

The IF concept is really one of the most amazing solutions for most people in need of "fold-able" bikes. But as Chucky said, the concept made it really difficult to get into a suitcase, excluding it from being a good fit for me.

Thank you for the contribution Chucky. I do have a mountain bike background, and yes, we do make the bike "walk" over things! That was a nice way to put it.

What I really need is a bike the size of the carry me, the price of a Citizen bike, that rides like a Bike Friday and the weight of a Cervello P4, that is good enough for double centuries.

Unfortunately, the Brompton is significantly bigger than the carry me;
Unfortunately, the Brompton is significantly (several times) more expensive than any Citizen bike;
Unfortunately, the Brompton does not ride like a Bike Friday, or Birdy, or Swift;
Unfortunately, the Brompton is significantly heavier than the P4;
Unfortunately, after 120 miles or so, I start to feel the lack of a perfect geometry, so the Brompton is not ideal for double centuries.

BUT...unfortunately, the Brompton is the best I can get for my unique, special needs. Believe me, I tried almost everything else...and will continue to try since I believe diversity leads to evolution.

Just came around this whole thread, soo many good points. My faith has been restored.

Juan

What is interesting, about folding bikes here in China, is that while many people ride folders, they never fold them. It is interesing to see peoples reactions when I fold my Dahon, it is like they have never seen anyone fold a bike up before; but, they probably haven't.

One man, who was riding a folder, was watching my fold my bike and asked me about it. He said he had never see a bike fold before. The amazing thing was that we were at a train station and he was on a folder. But, watch, they do not fold them. All I can think is that it is popular because it may be easier for shipping.

It makes sense, for all intents and purposes, bikes are not permitted on the trains, not even folders. The idea of taking a bile inside is seen as just plain dirty, again, even a folder. Normally bikes are just left outside (with nothing but a wheel lock). Some of the bike enthusiast, such as those in my club, will take then and put them on their patios; but, even that is uncommon.

Considering all, I surprised that folders are as popular, here in China, as they are.

I have a CarryMe. The small wheels are generally not a problem. But it has been a problem sometimes with gutters that intersect the whole street, cobbled roads and dirt tracks. That said, it's not much different that a road bike. I buckled the back wheel already somehow. When I'm in a city I find it extremely useful and it goes on a plane. The main thing is that I know if I get lost or late I can always take a taxi back, which is very handy.
The quality isn't great but it's very useful... I don't feel the need for a Brompton only because I've never used a Brompton...

Brompton still claimed " intellectual rights" when I tried to sell a Merc on ebay advertised as having genuine Brompton parts. Ebay pulled the advert twice under Bromptons complains. Have they any right to do this or were Ebay simply pandering to Bromptoms demands?

You are entitled to your opinion but the 'many Brompton customers' you refer to don't just buy it because it's made in London. Don't generalise just because it isn't the bike for you Chucky ;-)

Yes you would say that Juan wouldn't you? Let's see how you feel when you see some Pacific folder rip-offs copied by the Chinese if they become mainstream enough. If your bike range is 10% as successful as Brompton in Europe you will be a rich man and Pacfic will be smiling.

Why don't you get off Brompton's case as you have a vested interest in promoting Pacific bikes? Learn the ethics that you preach about so much Juan ;-)

Cheap copy might not be accurate.
From the report of users that I have seen

Brompton copy = Merc is good quality generally with a few weak points that are easily addressed , latest flamingo better bike than a Brompton from what I can see.
Strida copy = good quality compared to original reports "evilv".

Birdie Copy anyone?

The Merc was ok. It was not as good quality as a Brompton but it was arguably better value for money. Flamingo's maker was never an honest business partner and doesn't deserve many accolades. As for the Flamingo we'd have to ride it in person and road test it over a period of time.

I would stand corrected that 'cheap' does not necessarily mean 'bad'. I should have been clearer :-)

I would however say that it is unfair to copy a bike in an identical fashion and this can raise copyright issues which can still be protected. Dahon's Curl is a compliment to Brompton's fold design as it is similar and yes the patent has run out so why not? However it is differentiated and not a complete clone.

What most of us would agree on is that many folding bikes are overpriced. Ask Mark Sanders.

Absolutely not, that was very off of them. I can understand why they considered the Merc a breach of copyright. I totally agree that there is no argument against copying some technical aspects of an expired patent but to unashamedly clone a product? That's just my opinion of course.

As for picking on you as an individual, would it really have impacted their business? I can understand how you feel as a person. I think that was an infringement of your rights as an individual.

+1. Dahon Hammerhead, Downtube FS, Downtube Mini, Merc, Speed TR. All good in their way; and I have a strong fondness for the Dahons. However, my Brompton is the one...

Absolutely agree. But only the IF fold has really addressed that. You cannot compare a Dahon Cadenza folded (which wasn't a bad bike) to a Pacific Urban IF. This folding mechanism is one of the best innovations in years but it is being priced out of the reach of the mass market.

Chucky you've gone off the rails lol! There are several of us on the forums who like Brommies. Let's summarise some of the largely unfounded comments you've made about some brommie owners on the forum!

1) You said many Brompton owners bought the bike simply because it's 'Made in London'. How do you know that? Have you done a market research survey with a valid sample set? I think you may find that's a sweeping generalisation. Did you know 70% of them are exported?

2) You call us the equivalent of 'Apple fanboys' for defending the Brompton and/or it's bikes. Yes it is not the bike for everyone but it enough for over 20,000 people worldwide each year . Can you me why it has such a good growth rate overseas and not just in the UK? The people who buy into it think the ride is good enough and love the fold. Most forum members who own a Brommie are not claiming it's the best ride for example, just the best for their needs. It's matching needs that gains a company market share. Brompton may not be as big as Dahon in model range or annual sales but it is big enough to be called a very successful niche manufacturer.

3) Most of the Brompton fanboys (Bromptonites) exist on the Brompton forums not on this one.

4) There is evidence of a couple of vested interests (excepting yourself) slagging off Brompton and remaining uncritical of the bikes they are promoting. Perhaps some of us are equally fed up of Brompton being constantly targeted in some recent threads? It works both ways.


I own a Brompton, Pacific Reach IF and a Dahon Jetstream EX. They are all great folding bikes and I love them all. It's clearly not the bike for you Chucky but it sells enough units in the UK and worldwide to ensure none of the employees are worrying about redundancy right now. I love my Brompton but like the Dahon and Pacific I believe they can all be refined upon and improved in some way. If you like analogies, how about the fact some people also hate a company simply because it is successful and the bike just doesn't happen to be their cup of tea? A bit like musical tastes really.

I totally agree. Bike X is much better than bike Y, hands down!

Mulleady doth protest too much, methinks.

--Hamlet Act II scene iii

Dahon rules

Sounds like Dahon's customer service.