New frame, Reynolds 725, fillet-brazed:

Album 1


Album 2

I have a sticker on my toolbox that says, "is that your bike or did a camel throw up on it," that is perfect for that paint job. I would be suspicious that it suffers from misalignment, otherwise it looks ok.

Are a few of the photos trying to show a bent top tube? Was the bike wrecked? "New" with a bent tube?

The frame looks clean, although slight surface irregularities do show up quite a bit under the paint.

Yes, the frame is new and some photos are showing the bow in the top tube. Only the seat tube is swaged towards the end. No crash, no falling over.

So, what is the deal with the bent top tube? Was it built that way?

I don't know what the deal is. Builder is saying it's fine, it's not bent, bowed, or dented, it's more important how it rides, steel "deforms as it is brazed and is then stress relieved to bring it back into alignment" and it's perfectly normal for a handbuilt frame to have a tube like this.

This frame and question came up over at ****** Framebuilding a week or so ago. I've had a few postings on that thread and my opinion has drifted from my initial position.


At first I wanted to better understand the situation and didn't have all the photos of all the details. I was ok with some of the frame's "issues" (like the dropout/stay joints), made some waffling comments about the fillets finishing, made some comments about what was claimed to be the builder's comments about stress during brazing but wasn't sure about the top tube yet. Now I feel that this frame is a crude production, that it is a poor example of a builder's craft.


The various builder's comments as posted by the OP, the lack of builder's ID on the frame (the OP says there's some very subtle decals, but I sure can't see them), the general finishing grade of the frame, the asymmetrical condition of the top tube, the presence of what might be dents or evidence of pressure points on the top tube all combine to make me feel as I do.


The OP didn't spend much $, as the custom frame building market currently is, but still he has serious questions about this frame's integrity and is frustrated by the builder's seemingly lack of willingness to take ownership of the frame's condition. I suggested that at some point if the builder doesn't make some move to work with the OP that the OP take the only real next step he has. He should out the builder.


Those of you here who know me understand this is a pretty harsh position for me to take. I generally like the middle ground and try to offer both sides some slack as well as to share in the problem that we talk about. But this time it seems that the OP's worst "mistake" was to buy at the bottom of the market.


In my eyes the mistake the builder made was to let loose a frame that is pretty crude and like what a hobby builder might produce for their second or third frame. If the builder is good with this frame being a good representation of their work then the builder will have no problem with their name being outed. Andy

My first was better than this and my first wasn't very good. My initial thought of the wavy top tube was that it was poorly finished bondo trying to cover up kinked/bent tube due to 'stress relieving'.

Structurally, it *may be* fine but, I would have cut this up and thrown it away - and I only build for myself.

This looks like a hobby builder trying to cover material costs by selling a frame before the skill is there to do it right.

Same with me. I've done some poorly finished frames early on but all looked better then this one. This is a big reason to have a mentor or to take a class. besides the quicker learning curve about the actual building a good class will also cover a lot about the business side of this industry.


I do hope to become a real business later this year but after 39 years of off and on again building for me and my family (and a couple of stints for other builders) I know my work needs refining. The first few frames are still intended for me. Andy

there is a mitering error at the top tube seat tube joint. I suppose it could be clocked, but then there would be an equal error at the head tube. I am assuming that at some point the miter was actually touching all the way around

Maybe built in a rigid jig, then was aligned again by force, after taking it out, due to the built up forces in the brazing,

that pushed it out of alignment?

I know you won't let stuff go out like this.

The swaging and wrinkles on the top tube came from using a bar clamp to hold the tube in place while applying heat. I've seen this happen in other joining applications. He doesn't know how to use a file either. This guy is selling his work therefore he is a professional, A hobbyist ( I have been one for 30 years) would never let this out of their basement.

Yeah the fillets are uneven and poorly polished. That bow and wrinkles on the top tube are NOT normal. Tubes do deform under heat but they simply get a bit ovalised near the joint. Generally "stress relieving" refers to a metallurgical heat treatment but here it looks like the tube was bent due to poor alignment. Try to sight the HT against the ST; they likely won't be parallel.

It's one thing to have small imperfections (like on the dropout) but these are quite blatant. It is likely structurally sound.

Thanks for opinions. I ordered this frame from Vernon Barker Cycles, in UK. I wanted a steel frame for general use, training, long rides, and I like the appeal of fillet-brazed frames. I chose this builder because frames on the site looked ok, not high-budget, and I didn't see anything wrong. They also advertised "At Vernon Barker we specialize in lugless frame construction. Some customers prefer lugless construction because of it's aesthetically smooth finish." I expected nice, not perfect joints, and a straight frame. It was built by Dave Baillie, mechanic with 30 years experience. Also the price of 940£ (1200$) for the frameset was close to other options I've found (Chickens, Shand, Mercian). I did not want a high budget build, but a nice frame that could last me many years.

I shipped the frame back for a partial refund, which is an ok solution to me, and builder is fine with the state of this frame. The color is another matter, I also requested the decals, it was supposed to be a long fade from "hot" magenta to orange, like old Serottas with subtle orange logos. Needles to say it didn't turn out as intended. Small imperfections are ok, but I can't accept a bowed tube and inconsistent joints. I would not look twice at such a frame if second-hand shopping. Someone I showed it too presumed it was crashed and then repaired.

sorry to hear about that. I think you made the right choice. I doubt you would have been happy looking at it.

I dont trust that bend on that frame.