Michele_Salmaso

I appreciate your answer. Maybe I used the wrong word "artisan", but I thought that it was the best way to avoid confusion on my question: to use "handcrafted" or "handmade" would suggested some eventually replays or close some replays.
That is about the first part of your post.

Second part is even more interesting why is the core of the question that caught me and some friends into a discussion. What building frames means? Who is a craftman ( or artisan )?

Michele_Salmaso

I agree. These are the same arguments that I used during the deabt. But someone proposed another aspect: who real is an artisan?

Who litteraly build the frame with his hands? Or who propose an idea, a project that, then, is made by someone other?

Michele_Salmaso

I tought the same things when I started the thread

Andrew R Stewart 

I think, like some here, that "artisan" is a marketing term, which is why I used quotation marks around it. It has no real meaning except to those who care to use it.


Handcraft- To make something (a frame/fork) with many hands on or hand powdered steps. Also mostly a marketing term. I would say that pretty much any frame/fork can be called handcrafted at the most basic level but some are much more so. I think of builders like Sachs that have left behind many power tools and, as example, hand files the miters and has but one torch held in his hand. Compare that to a small batch production shop with automated pre heating stations on their brazing carousel, machine mitering 10 tubes identically at a time and each frame seeing many peoples' hands along the production cycle. Both could be considered handcrafted but one is "more so" then the other.


Think of the food terms like "natural", "green", "organic" and others. Only after these terms became so wide spread and industry & consumer groups petitioned the governing bodies were industry wide guidelines created. Until this step these terms were used without concerns by many food producers. Even today I doubt that the public could describe the differences without being told first and I suspect these terms are still found on packaging where the product isn't fully following the guidelines. The chance of being caught and that becoming a "scandal" is real small, especially for the not huge producers.


In the end the reasons we might use one term or another to describe our work are to have our work look appealing in our ads, to brand our work in a light we want to be associated with. Without any inforced guidelines (like the "domestic content" rules covering "made in the US" products that have some foreign manufacturing too) it's all hype. Andy.

unterhausen

I don't know, we don't have a marketer's forum here, but that would be better. Marketing is using up all the terms that are useful to describe framebuilding. "Curate" is my current favorite. I had a granola bar that was "curated from the finest ingredients" -- pretty much tasted like potpourri.

Anyone that needs a marketing handle to sell frames is not just selling frames. You can usually find out how people build frames. If you can't, they probably aren't made by artisans.

Moose

If you are a framebuilder who is in the trade to make a profit, guess what? You are a marketer.

It is your place to rebuff a specific marketing term because you feel it is pretentious or overused if you wish but it does not necessarily reflect positively on you to dismiss the subject altogether when a potential customer of your trade poses a question. You come off just as snooty as the ad wizards you are deriding by apparently stating that such language is beneath you.

squirtdad

I think a guy like
dave Kirk and the custom/bespoke bikes he produces would be considered artisanal. built by one person in a garage, one at a time. Painted by one specialist An automated process to build a custom bike would not be artisanal



this guy makes artisanal pizza, using classic techniques, but it is not custom/bespoke per se

https://vimeo.com/106827149





ar·ti·san·al
ärˈtēzən(ə)l
adjective
relating to or characteristic of an artisan. "artisanal skills"
(of a product, especially food or drink) made in a traditional or non-mechanized way.

unterhausen

this thread really makes me wish someone would build a frame

Andrew R Stewart 

OK, Eric, here's a shot of what's now an almost completed frame (this shot was over a month ago, now the frame is done and the fork is waiting for my new sandblster to be assembled). To tie it into the thread's topic it is hand made with what some might call artistic flair in a few spots. I would not call the builder or frame "artisan" though. Andy (who does call himself a hobby or gentleman builder)

unterhausen

nice, I like that table. And two height gauges at once. I need to start haunting ebay looking for one.

Michele_Salmaso

I didn't know that, thank you for explanation (In my mind - and also in the dictionary that I've consulted ) "artisan" was a simply synonym" )

Michele_Salmaso

You cought perfectly the reason because first I used the word "artisan" instead the word "handcraft". I didn't use handcraft because it would suggested "made by hand" but pretty much any frame can be called in this way:
also the frame made in Taiwan are mede by hand. That's my "theoretical doubt".
Looking at the diferences, there is many way to interpret the meaning of word "handcraft": a way that we can call it "Sachs way", more connected to the traditions and a way more inclined to the innovation. I don't know if I considered one "handcraft" that others. They are the same, simply because we can't fix a "zero point" about technology.

Michele_Salmaso

The food's example is good. Many times, when I reflected about this topic I looked to this example to find some suggestion. And the contradictions are the same as bike field. Many producer don't respect the guide with the results to create confusion between the consumer.

Michele_Salmaso

I agree with all your arguments. I think at the same points every time. There is another point that I can't answer: who project a frame, designed it, but commit to someone ( a collaborator that work in his company or an external collaborator that weld ) the practice realization, can he be considered an artisan?

Michele_Salmaso

I'm sorry unter but it was not my will to open a topic about marketing, and I think that this topic is not about marketing. Maybe you can define this thread too much phylosophical, - or theoretical if you want - but you can't define all this "marketing".

Maybe, if we want talk about marketing we can say that marketing has raised the question, but this confusion, I think, existed yet; in a different way there was no questions and doubts about it. I think.

By the way, what do you mean with the second part of your post? what "you can usually find out how people build frames" means? that you can see into backstage of production process?

Michele_Salmaso

Of course. Everyone in this word is a marketer: who sell something, who sell his masterpiece and who sell his skill,
as a worker.

Michele_Salmaso

I think that question is interesting to reduce the confusion about this business. And I think that an interesting question deserved an interesting discussion regardless who pose it. As I say some posts ago if there is a doubt means that the abuse of the term "handcraft" made by the marketing is only the point that discovered a problem, is not the specific problem.

Michele_Salmaso

The problem is to define what "automatized" means. Use a drill press means automatized? maybe yes if from someone that use only the file standpoint.
In the same way, I think, who use a drill presse considers "automatized process" a process that concerns a CNC.

No, automatized / mechanized is too generic in my opinion. What this two words mean? Fine is "mechanized-free" and a "dremel" means mechanized?

I think that the real idea behind an artisanl process is the link hand - mind ( or brain ), as Richard Sennet wrote in his famous book.

Any distinction made by this or that tool use of is useful to create a larger or less group...

Andrew R Stewart 

- If no one initially used these terms to describe some aspect of work or products then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Here there is no "chicken or the egg". Sometime long ago someone used these terms for the first time in a need to describe something. Until a word is created, attains a meaning, we can't think of it. As "artisan" and "hand crafted" have nothing to do with the actual building and everything about the image of and suggesting the attitude of building I don't see how they can't not be considered to be marketing devices. Certainly devices which help us catalog and track our opinions. So at the least we're "marketing" to ourselves This very much parallels the question of "what's art?"


-One of the cool, but frustratingly tangent making, aspects of these types of questions is that we often find out that we are only asking one small part of a larger topic. To talk about one tree in a forest only is lacking the larger picture. Often as one looks into a topic there's soon a feeling of "wow, I didn't know there was so much there to understand. And check that out over there that's pretty interesting too" (and off we go into that tangent). Andy (who needs to be productive now)

squirtdad

I think you are way overthinking this, in what feels like trying to find a sharply defined, black and white definition of what is less of defined thing and more of a feel.

it is a bit like distinction that some people make between custom and bespoke, other that american vs british english. it is very gray, with bespoke bringing up (to me anyway) images of the tailor fitting mutiple muslin patterns or the shoemaker using a last that was built for the customer.

the point is was trying to make was Artisanal does always equal custom and custom does not always equal artisanal.

you could have computerized bike fit bike, the generates all measurements, thatthen feed into a robotic, automated build process that at the end generates a very high quality, custom bike, but that would not be artisanal.

Tool usage is not the definition either. Anything made by "hand" has some level of tool usage. Use of power tools does not take away from an artisan.

I think you more have to look at the process. Dave kirk as an example builds a frame start to end by himself, during this process all the things he has learned are applied both consciously and unconsciously. He had learned a lot of this while building frames for Serrota, which while using classic lugged steel technique but the process at Serrota would not be considered by me to be artisanal.

Michele_Salmaso

I agree with every single words, specially with the last sentence where you make a parallels with the art: that's the goal!
I think this is the main difference to consider to define what's artisan ( or handmade or as we want use ): the art.
Of course, we defenitly can't find, or try to find, the meaning of word "art", but I think we can talk about the meaning of artisan.
So, now the question could be: what do you feel that make you an artisan ( or craftsman) ?

Of course. It's very easy in this kind of question to go into the tangent, but I think that - sometimes - is cool. Sometimes on talking about a subject we can discovery some aspects that we never come across before.

I often thought - and think - about the meaning of "artisan" and I just hope to have proposed an interesting question and subject of debate

Michele_Salmaso

Sorry, maybe you're right, sometimes I go into the tangent.But I'm very interested in this topic, and I like to debate about it with you.


What do you mean?

I agree. The way to rejoint is the main difference, not just the result.


Right. I agree: to use power tools not take away from an artisan. Unfortunately, too often I talk with people who use this kind of distinction: it is one of the most old question of the world "la querelles des anciens et des moderns: old is better.
In opinion of this persons a modern process to make something is wrong; or just worst. Maybe they're right, I don't agree with them.

Yeah, to look at the process is the way to try to explain what artisanl means. Artisan applies all the thins he has learned.
So, I would propose you a question: head and hand can be separate? I try to explain more clearly: who design a bike and work directly with weld ( for example ), following every process of construction with all the material feedback, can be considered an artisan?

MikeGodwin

When I google for "artisan bicycle," the only unique hits I get are a bike shop in Illinois and one in the Philippines. So it's not a term in common usage. When Unterhausen asked where you had heard it, you never answered. Virtually nobody uses this term, as far as I can tell. Was it a google translate result?

79pmooney

My take? An artisan bike is one where more attention is placed on details that matter only from an aesthetic point. like filing lugs beyond what is needed for clean workmanship and good stress relief. Especially when lugs are filed thinner than the best thickness for overall joint strength. Seatstay attachments where artistry takes precedent over strength. And the like. Such bikes often have very flashy or difficult to execute paint jobs.

Said by a guy who likes solid, simple bikes. (But I make no claim to be entirely consistent. My Peter Mooney is a very workman-like bike but it does have Nervex lugs at my request when the default was Prugnat long point, a much higher quality and stronger lug. The bike I raced had Japanese copies of Nervex lugs. I loved that bike, Peter had some Nervex lugs on hand, said that the price would be the same - cheaper lug, more filing - and that for my build and riding, it would make no difference.) My Mooney has seen use and incidents I would not want to put an "artisan" frame as I described above through including a wild ride with several thousand feet of descending down very steep "gravel" roads with inch and a half rocks. At 38 years old and 45,000 miles. I asked Peter to make me a frame to go 20,000 miles. He delivered.

My other two customs are TiCyles ti frames, steel forks. TiCycles welding is not as "perfect" as some of the Merlins out there and the like. He built those frames while I was working in engineering at a plant that made railroad cars and ocean going steel barges. Welding is what they do. Tips on good welding, books on welding were everywhere there. Serious welding machines. Their bread and butter was a 400' x 100' x 25' high deck barge with a 1" steel deck. No moving parts, almost nothing removable. Just one hunk of welded steel. Roughly 4,000 tons of steel. Non of this applies to the thin tubes of bicycles except one article I read there. A researcher tested welds to destruction; welds done in laps by hand. He found consistently that very uniform, even lapped welds were not the strongest and that the best welds were done by welders who speed their welding up as the work heated to keep temperatures down. So any time I look at the beautifully and uniform laps of a welded ti or steel frame, now I wonder.

Ben

squirtdad

left a not out meant to write "Artisanal does not always equal custom and custom does not always equal artisanal".