Vert to horizontal dropouts
#2
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 720
Likes: 19
From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Road, mountain and track bikes and tandems.
I have done it, but it was not something that I could imagine anyone would classify as fun. If you are looking for the advantage of not being able to pull the wheel forward, a much easier route would be to simply weld on a few little tabs at the front of the drop outs, like the ones that a lot of forks have.
#3
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
I have done it, but it was not something that I could imagine anyone would classify as fun. If you are looking for the advantage of not being able to pull the wheel forward, a much easier route would be to simply weld on a few little tabs at the front of the drop outs, like the ones that a lot of forks have.
#4
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
It's fussy work, but doable for an experienced builder. A beginner could possibly bumble their way through it and maybe end up with a usable frame. Henry James (see sources thread) has some conversion dropouts which are probably a good idea. It would be best if the donor frame doesn't have chrome on the rear triangle.
#5
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
It's fussy work, but doable for an experienced builder. A beginner could possibly bumble their way through it and maybe end up with a usable frame. Henry James (see sources thread) has some conversion dropouts which are probably a good idea. It would be best if the donor frame doesn't have chrome on the rear triangle.
#7
framebuilder


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,786
Likes: 2,701
From: Niles, Michigan
It is difficult enough so a beginner should not try and do it without expert instruction and practice. It isn't a place to start. It is easier to go from vertical to horizontal than the other way around however.
#10
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
Thanks all.
I had the idea this was one of those topics that, if you have to ask, the answer is no.
Just to add some color - I am looking for an affordable frame with canti brakes for ss cx racing but also compatible with 700c rims (I have a set I want to use) and horizontal dropouts so I can easily put back to a geared bike in case I hate racing ss or make it a touring bike in case I hate racing period (currently I only have my ss commuter, nothing for longer rides)
I will either have to make due with a 1/2 link setup or the eno hub by White Industries mentioned above or build a couple dedicated bikes.
I had the idea this was one of those topics that, if you have to ask, the answer is no.
Just to add some color - I am looking for an affordable frame with canti brakes for ss cx racing but also compatible with 700c rims (I have a set I want to use) and horizontal dropouts so I can easily put back to a geared bike in case I hate racing ss or make it a touring bike in case I hate racing period (currently I only have my ss commuter, nothing for longer rides)
I will either have to make due with a 1/2 link setup or the eno hub by White Industries mentioned above or build a couple dedicated bikes.
#11
Senior Member


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,046
Likes: 4,891
From: Point Reyes Station, California
Bikes: Indeed!
You could also just replace the rear derailleur with a spring-loaded chain tensioner. You'll see this mod on a lot of CX and Mt Bikes that are converted to single speed; Surly Singleator, Paul Melvin, etc. Lots of choices.
Brent
Brent
#12
Senior Member


Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,344
Likes: 5,461
From: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
The single pulley tensioner is my solution for the next up bike/frame. An IGH with disks and a dynamo ft hub. But I'm not racing or riding at max force over rough stuff on it, or I hope not. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#13
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Just to add some color - I am looking for an affordable frame with canti brakes for ss cx racing but also compatible with 700c rims (I have a set I want to use) and horizontal dropouts so I can easily put back to a geared bike in case I hate racing ss or make it a touring bike in case I hate racing period (currently I only have my ss commuter, nothing for longer rides)
#14
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
I contemplated making this response but it's not helpful. And with adequate preparation and study, you could do it. It's a significant effort though and more expensive than it looks. I would say the rear dropouts are one of the things that new builders have the most trouble with, and adding the complication of having an existing rear triangle makes it significantly more difficult to do right. And in the end you need a paint job, which is expensive.
Seems like everything that surly makes has horizontal drops and Salsa has a lot of bikes that have adjustable dropouts. For canti, you are talking used or old stock for the most part, I think. OTOH, my LBS has some canti frames hanging from the walls. I suspect they would be willing to discount nowadays.
Seems like everything that surly makes has horizontal drops and Salsa has a lot of bikes that have adjustable dropouts. For canti, you are talking used or old stock for the most part, I think. OTOH, my LBS has some canti frames hanging from the walls. I suspect they would be willing to discount nowadays.
#15
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
I think my ideal frame at this point is a SS frame and if I decide to convert to touring go IGH or with an add on derailleur hanger
#16
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
Maybe a sign: guy just posted on craigslist bike parts a tensioner for $10. Been resisting that route but maybe it's time to just call it.
#17
Senior Member


Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,344
Likes: 5,461
From: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
I will probably wind up going the tensioner route on a standard vert dropout frame OR I just discovered Origin8 and a bunch of others make derailleur hangers for track type dropouts.
I think my ideal frame at this point is a SS frame and if I decide to convert to touring go IGH or with an add on derailleur hanger
I think my ideal frame at this point is a SS frame and if I decide to convert to touring go IGH or with an add on derailleur hanger
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#18
~>~
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,929
Likes: 187
From: TX Hill Country
On any flavor of race bike that isn't used on a Velodrome fast reliable wheel changes can make the difference between DFL, DNF or a more respectable finish.
Vertical rear dropouts are the easiest, quickest and most unlikely to bodge a rear wheel change on, particularly under the pressure of an in-race wheel change.
Many of us warm up on the "B" wheels and install the race wheels before the start. Screwing that up is about the last thing up need when your class is being called to line up.
Reliable and light In That Order make for a good 'Cross bike in any racing class. Put a tensioner on vertical dropouts and have at it.
-Bandera
Vertical rear dropouts are the easiest, quickest and most unlikely to bodge a rear wheel change on, particularly under the pressure of an in-race wheel change.
Many of us warm up on the "B" wheels and install the race wheels before the start. Screwing that up is about the last thing up need when your class is being called to line up.
Reliable and light In That Order make for a good 'Cross bike in any racing class. Put a tensioner on vertical dropouts and have at it.
-Bandera
#19
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
On any flavor of race bike that isn't used on a Velodrome fast reliable wheel changes can make the difference between DFL, DNF or a more respectable finish.
Vertical rear dropouts are the easiest, quickest and most unlikely to bodge a rear wheel change on, particularly under the pressure of an in-race wheel change.
Many of us warm up on the "B" wheels and install the race wheels before the start. Screwing that up is about the last thing up need when your class is being called to line up.
Reliable and light In That Order make for a good 'Cross bike in any racing class. Put a tensioner on vertical dropouts and have at it.
-Bandera
Vertical rear dropouts are the easiest, quickest and most unlikely to bodge a rear wheel change on, particularly under the pressure of an in-race wheel change.
Many of us warm up on the "B" wheels and install the race wheels before the start. Screwing that up is about the last thing up need when your class is being called to line up.
Reliable and light In That Order make for a good 'Cross bike in any racing class. Put a tensioner on vertical dropouts and have at it.
-Bandera
#20
~>~
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,929
Likes: 187
From: TX Hill Country
Nothing like getting your tube changed, inflated and tire properly seated only to have to deflate it because with a horizontal dropout an inflated tire contacts the mudguard at the front of the dropout and will not allow the wheel to be reinstalled.
"Uh, got a CO2 cartridge I can borrow......"
-Bandera
#21
Banned
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,586
Likes: 1,380
From: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 8
Getting a frame with a broken right dropout and having a set of horizontal dropouts that's what I did..
30 years ago..
I could braze , do metalworking, and had built a frame from scratch with modest access to tools , , assistance and materials.. ..
Yes a spring-loaded chain tension-er is good ... I have 2 IGH bikes doing that..
You aren't, unstated , wanting to do another fixie conversion ?
....
30 years ago..
I could braze , do metalworking, and had built a frame from scratch with modest access to tools , , assistance and materials.. ..
Yes a spring-loaded chain tension-er is good ... I have 2 IGH bikes doing that..
You aren't, unstated , wanting to do another fixie conversion ?....
Last edited by fietsbob; 01-28-19 at 04:21 PM.
#24
Thread Starter
Very Slow Rider
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 133
From: E Wa
Bikes: Jones Plus LWB, 1983 Centurion Japanese CrMo bike
No on the fixie - I have no interest in riding fixed gear.
I have two bikes at the present - a Specialized Langster with track forks and drop bars set up as a SS/Freewheel which I use for everyday commuting and an old Nishiki plain-guage/hi tensile bike which was a 10 speed but is now a SS/Freewheel with CX tires, dual pivot brakes and MTB handlebars. This bike is not fast or terribly efficient but a ton of fun to ride with my kids.
I just got rid of a SS folding bike (my college kid needed more reliable transportation than her car so she got it for free, awesome campus bike, actually) and I just sold my CX frame because I determined it would be too tall (who knew the BB shell on a CX frame rides higher than a track frame??) lol
The bike I wish to build is a SS/CX bike which I can easily put back to geared in case I hate racing it, I can just use it for a touring/weekend bike for longer rides. I plan on running a freehub body with a single cog which would be easy to slip on an 8+ speed cassette in the event I wanted to switch back (no re-dishing, etc)
I have two bikes at the present - a Specialized Langster with track forks and drop bars set up as a SS/Freewheel which I use for everyday commuting and an old Nishiki plain-guage/hi tensile bike which was a 10 speed but is now a SS/Freewheel with CX tires, dual pivot brakes and MTB handlebars. This bike is not fast or terribly efficient but a ton of fun to ride with my kids.
I just got rid of a SS folding bike (my college kid needed more reliable transportation than her car so she got it for free, awesome campus bike, actually) and I just sold my CX frame because I determined it would be too tall (who knew the BB shell on a CX frame rides higher than a track frame??) lol
The bike I wish to build is a SS/CX bike which I can easily put back to geared in case I hate racing it, I can just use it for a touring/weekend bike for longer rides. I plan on running a freehub body with a single cog which would be easy to slip on an 8+ speed cassette in the event I wanted to switch back (no re-dishing, etc)
Last edited by davei1980; 01-30-19 at 11:29 AM.
#25
Senior Member


Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,344
Likes: 5,461
From: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Dave- At least one of the greats in modern building (and is well known for his CX team) has said that the BB drop doesn't need to be less on a CX bike, the taller tier will lift up the height anyway. But with a fixed gear ride (and I know that's not what you plan) the not being able to time one's pedal stroke and terrain stuff suggest less drop is a good idea.
As to folding bikes- mine have all been 3 speeds. I choose the high gear (3rd) to be my flat land steady riding ratio. This way the two lower gears get me up and over the hills (since many folders seem to lack a certain efficiency). Andy
As to folding bikes- mine have all been 3 speeds. I choose the high gear (3rd) to be my flat land steady riding ratio. This way the two lower gears get me up and over the hills (since many folders seem to lack a certain efficiency). Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart



