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Testing Frames!!!

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Testing Frames!!!

Old 02-27-10, 10:18 PM
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Ferrite
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Testing Frames!!!

I just brazed my first frame together and am wondering how do/did you guys/gals test your frames for structural integrity? I'm not talking about riding it down the bumpiest hill you can find and counting how many teeth you have left after it fails. I mean real tests that don't involve personal risk.

Thanks!
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Old 02-28-10, 07:47 AM
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Well, honestly, the only definitive way to do this is to cut the frame apart, making sure that you have full braze penetration on all joints.

Otherwise, you need to look for signs of complete braze penetration, i.e. brazing material on the shorelines of the outside and inside of your bottom bracket, top and bottom of your head and seat lugs, etc. The time you spend getting up close and personal with your frame with emery cloth and files should allow you to check this.

Pete
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Old 02-28-10, 10:07 AM
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I couldn`t begin to answer your question, but are you going to put up pics of your first born? What kind of construction?
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Old 02-28-10, 10:28 AM
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Yeah with lugs a way to have some idea of the structural integrity is to braze from one size and pull the filler to the other. This way you know the joint is pretty good. But really the lugs hides the joint so the only way to know is to slice it up.

You can also make some practice joints and slice them up, these days it's what I am doing. Good thing I did it 'cause I could not pull the brass in the BB shell, and upon slicing it up the penetration was quite miserable.

With fillets you have a better idea by looking at the finished joint, but again perhaps your mitres moved a bit, or you didn't heat sufficiently and the internal fillet is bad...

Or I don't know some fatigue tests like they do in large productions? That would require some machinery...
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Old 02-28-10, 12:58 PM
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I think that the crux of the issue is that whatever you do to this frame other than paying attention to shorelines, as suggested above, won't apply to the frame you ride. A fatigue test kills this frame. Cutting it obviously does. So you'll still end up with the same questions about the second frame. I say ride this one with a store bought fork. Check for cracks as needed.
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Old 03-02-10, 11:19 PM
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There are very expensive testing devices used by large companies. You don't have access to these. So all you can do is miter each tube perfectly, ensure that all mating surfaces are within tolerance, perfectly clean, and thoroughly fluxed. Then you have to heat the joint evenly, ad filler from one spot and pull it through to every other spot. After removing the flux you closely examined every joint under strong light and ensured that there is indeed filler material showing evenly at every shoreline, and from the miters inside the bottom bracket shell, etc.

If you did these things with every joint, your frame is strong and safe. If you did not, it is not.
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Old 03-03-10, 12:35 AM
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Did you align the frame using a surface plate? Even small amounts of misalignment take a significant amount of deflection tweaking to bring them into plane. Typically if the frame can live though this ordeal it will be fine on the road.

Regarding other ways to check the frame I always watch inside the BB for brazing material to come though after feeding it in from the outside. Once you get a feel for how much to feed and how far to pull it down, your confidence will go up with the build.
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Old 03-03-10, 07:33 PM
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This is an issue in the EU now, because they seem to have some actually standards and requirements. In general, if you use normal proceedures, and independently develop your joinery skills the end result should be fine. Work with some samples, and when they pass destructive or visual tests you should be good to go.
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Old 03-03-10, 10:10 PM
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Thanks a lot for all the input. I guess I should finish drawing up the bike frame in Solidworks and do a simulated fatigue test.
But in reality before I cut my lugs and check to see penetration which I feel pretty confident about except for the areas where I might have left less than .001 clearance for the brass brazing rod to flow, I would like to know if anyone has done a stress test. I am sure I can figure it out but would I be better off building something that would create a fatigue test that simulates an actual ride over time or a fatigue test that acts like a rider thats to big for a road bike frame and using it like a bmx bike? Make sense? If not, Imagine putting a cat on a paper airplane and throwing it. Does it fly? How does the plane hold up under the cat (that's now tearing the plane to pieces. And your next!).
Oh! I have only brazed together the front triangle of the frame so "riding it and checking for cracks as needed" is out of the questions unless I'm dragging it behind my truck which would be "dragging it and checking for cracks as needed". Not happening.

Peterpan1!!! Oie! This is good information. Would you happen to have any info or links to the standards and requirements? I am interested in seeing some since this is the first time I have heard of any outside of Keirin.

Six Jours!!! Sup. I'm going to do a search for testing devices as soon as I'm done writing this. Thanks! So far the only one I have seen was the one Serotta uses on their carbon frames.\

Nessism!!! Yo. I that the 3rd Hokage avatar? Thanks for the tips. I will definetly watch the flow of brazing material.

My next step is to cut, sand and etch the pieces ands see if there are any holidays. I'll try to post pics. Thanks again for all of the input.
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Old 03-03-10, 10:35 PM
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https://www.efbe.de/pruefservice/ermu...dex.php#Rahmen

https://www.allproducts.com/machine/c...-cy6103a1.html
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Old 03-04-10, 05:36 PM
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You are going to like this, it contains test standards

https://www.bike-eu.com/public/file/a...lish-draft.pdf


Check these for other standards.

This European Standard is completely new and is one of a series being produced to cover all types of bicycle. Standards in this series are:

* EN 14764 City and trekking bicycles - Safety requirements and test methods
* TC 333 WI 00333002 Cycles - Vocabulary - Terminology (ISO 8090:1990 Modified)
* EN 14765 Bicycles for young children - Safety requirements and test methods
* EN 14766 Mountain bicycles – Safety requirements and test methods
* EN 14781 Racing bicycles - Safety requirements and test methods
* prEN 14872 Bicycles - Accessories for bicycles - Luggage carriers
* prEN 15194 Cycles - Electrically power assisted cycles - EPAC bicycle

Personally I am going to stick with the time proven method of wearing a helmet during test drives.

By the way, when these came out there were reports of classic frame designs failing these test while department store aluminum bikes were acing the tests...
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