Maelochs

Another small point----most people dropping several thousand dollars on expensive bikes are apocryphal Dentist who rides it twice and sells it for two-thirds off (and I for one will by it without a pro fit if the frame size is right) or (by far the greater proportion) are people who have ridden as lot and know they want to ride a lot and thus spending the big bucks for the high-end bike makes sense.

Those folks are not ignorant, and have probably experimented a bunch with their own bikes and have ridden bunches of bikes on test rides and have a pretty fair idea of what frame size they need .... not based on numbers, which can mean different things on different frames .... but based on things like geometry charts which list tube angles, virtual and actual lengths, and stack and reach.

Maybe people who are smart don't talk to you because you treat them as if they were idiots, and the only people who will tolerate your condescension don't deserve it but will tolerate it.

You talk a lot about how people don't do what you say when You are sure you are smarter than everyone else .... maybe you are, but a lot of idiots think they are the smartest person in the room, too. You can't see what is right over your head, right?

Seriously, if you want to do any good for other people (as you claim to want to) then first off, stop imagining you are the only intelligent person on the planet. That might not help anyone else, but it will do You a world of good.

FBinNY 

Why is it that folks who drink Kool Aid insist that everyone else does also?

This isn't to say that fittings don't have some value, especially to those for those looking to optimize efficiency.

But a bit of perspective is in order. Most people who rightfully might consider a multi thousand dollar bike have been riding for a while, and should have a decent sense of their position, and be able to judge for themselves whether a given bike is in the right ballpark. The rest is a matter of adjustments for saddle position and stem length and height.

OTOH - someone so green that he's spending big dough before knowing what he needs probably won't benefit fully from a fit, because things can change significantly between being green and maturing a bit as a rider. Big bucks spent to fit a green rider, is like precision cutting green wood. It just doesn't work.

Machka 

@Eyedrop ... tell us a bit about the cycling you do. Can you give us a brief bio? It would help us determine credibility.

I-Like-To-Bike

Try harder.
Sez who? Some random guy who can't shut up about computerized bike fitting?

prathmann

Yes - which throws a major wrench into the idea that you must choose a particular bike based on it being a 'perfect fit' with no need to make any changes in stem/handlebar/spacers. Even if it needs no changes today it may well need some a little later.

Maelochs

Hands going numb is generally one of very few things.

A.) Your gloves are too tight.

B.) The wrist openings on your sleeves are too tight.

C.) You have too much weight on your hands.

D.) You hold the bars wrong.

If your hands go completely numb I'd think C, then D.

D.) First off, be careful where you rest your hands. If you press on nerves they go numb. I could spend pages trying to describe where the radial and ulnar nerves run, and how to make bone-line contact or all the different grips to use which won't stress the hands .... but you would have more fun watching the dozens of YouTube videos which can both explain and illustrate it better.

C.) is a serious fit issue.

A lot of riders have the bars too low, too far forward, or both, because they think they are supposed to look like the guys in the Tour de France. Unless you have the thigh and core strength of a pro rider, you probably cannot ride efficiently in that position for long----and when you cannot support your weight well with your legs and your core gets tired, you lean on your arms and most of your body weight----and All the road shock----goers right into the hands.

Your legs should bear most of your weight, some should rest on the saddle (on the wide part of the back of the saddle unless you are climbing or sprinting) and the very least part should be supported by the weakest extremities of your weakest limbs, i.e. the hands.

As I understand it (again, go to YouTube and watch two dozen videos and get a Lot of different explanations----someone might describe exactly your situation) Fit starts with the seat.

There is pretty much a very small range of positions for the seat where your leg almost fully extends at the farthest point and doesn't hyperextend (which will cripple you quickly) and a certain tilt (usually close to level----extreme angles Tend to be (but nothing is definite) as sign you need to make changes) and fore-and-aft location. This is determined by the length of your leg bones, flexibility of the hips, length of your feet.

A lot of people recommend what is called KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) as a rough starting guide. Fine-tune it from there and once you hit it, that shouldn't change much.

Your bikes might all be too big--- too long in the top tube---or you might have too long stems (again, a lot of bikes (until the advent of "endurance geometry) come from the factory set up to imitate pro racer posture.)

What has been recommended to me is to get on the bike next to a support (I do it leaning against the washer/dryer) and swing your body forward a comfortable amount---as though you were reaching for the handlebars----but don't grab them. if the bars aren't where your hand are ... . then you are reaching for them when you ride.

I buy spacers (99 cents each on Ebay) and cheap stems ($13-$16 on EBay) so I can adjust my bikes easily. if you do a few lean-tests and you see your hand are coming up a fraction of an inch high or short or both .... consider buying a shorter stem or a more steeply angled stem, or adding spacers (for a carbon steerer fork, 40 mm or 50 mm is the Max unless you like to gamble with your face. I recommend 40 max but will push it personally .... if you ever saw my face you'd know why.)

I also have a heavy adjustable-angle stem in case I want to experiment that way .... but I don't recommend that.

I am not sure---I know the Bridgestone has a threaded fork so you could probably raise the bars with a wrench and a sharp rap (YouTube it.) Try raising the bars until you feel like they are too high, then drop them in increments. If the reach feels wrong, try a couple different stems --or short-reach bars. If it hurts to ride the bike now, changing it is worth the risk. It might not get better, but it might.

Further---if you have several different frames in different sizes, they all should have different length and angle stems, right? Swap them about and see how each feels. Whenever something feels right----measure it.

Measure from the intersection of the seatpost and saddle top (an estimate, of course) to the far end of the stem at the bars. measure from the bottom bracket spindle cover (dust cover over the crank bolt or crank tensioner, depending) (Middle of the end of the crank away from the pedal) to the intersection of the seat post and saddle top. Measure stack and reach (these are arguably the Most important.).

Measure all the basic geometry numbers (or look them up, should be easier) for all your bikes---top tube and seat tube, effective top tube and seat tube, head tube, chain stays, head- and seat-tube angles.

That way when you look at another bike, you can look at the geometry chart and see how it compares to the bikes to have. That helps a Ton.

No reason you cannot ride several different "frame sizes" because many frames have different shapes, and all that really matters is the relationship between control surfaces (purists will howl, because BB drop, trail, HT angles etc. all affect a bike's performance ... but we are talking FIT.)

I have a small frame with a long stem and a lot of seat post exposed and a bigger frame with shorter stem and less seat post exposed. Because of slight geometry variations and the way I adjusted the cockpit components both fit very well.

If you know all the measurements you have, you can know what works and what doesn't. if you also track the components (what stem length and angle? What reach and drop on the bars?) then you can follow changes and eventually figure out what is about right For You.

Please--- do Not be afraid to move stuff around. You can always move it back. Maybe you won't want to.

Never trust a 15-minute "test ride." All you can test there is shifting and brakes. Fit you feel after half an hour, or two hours. And never trust a salesman who seems eager to make a sale.

Some folks will sell you anything they can convince you to buy, figuring they will never see you again, but they will make the commission. That's why you measure all your bikes and learn to read a geometry chart. Don't let some guy who is thinking about his next beer purchase decide what bike you need.

Not sure why one knee hurts .... but it seems that it hurts on all your bikes? it could be that you have one leg much shorter than the other. It could be an old injury. That is the sort of thing I would research as a medical issue, not a bike-fit issue.

In any case .... there are opinions ... quite a few have been stated here, and I am sure you have seen hundreds more.

Personally, I favor YouTube (or Park Tools) for videos about bike-related stuff.

Remember, almost every cyclist you have ever heard of and literally tens of millions more we have not .... all rode without bike fittings. Every Tour de France or other Grands Tor winner up until a decade ago .... didn't use a computerized video bike fit ... yet they won all those races and rode all those miles.

As another poster or two also mentioned .... RESEARCH any fitter before you pay (if you choose to go that route.) Some are untalented hacks trying to pay for their fitter classes and equipment rental, others could fit you better without any tools or props better than most people could fit you with them. Some can help you .... some need help themselves.

Machka 

Fit is definitely a moving target. All kinds of things can change fit including, but not limited to ...

- weight gain
- weight loss
- fitness improvement
- fitness reduction
- injury
- age
- other sports, and in particular muscle and flexibility development or lack thereof


While it is a good idea to get a bicycle that falls within the ballpark of "fit", IMO and IME, the first step of the bicycle purchasing process should be .... purpose.

What do you want to do with the bicycle?

The reason there are 101 different types of bicycles out there is because each one has been built with a different purpose in mind, however great or slight the differences might be.

And each person may have a different purpose in mind.

But it does help narrow the choices when you clarify your purpose.

tagaproject6

Stop being aggressive and preachy, change the world by examples and deeds. You will not change the cycling world on any interweb forum. Just ride and let others ride on their own terms, not yours or anyone else'.

jamesdak 

This!!!

I've paid for one fit in my life. But over the 30,000+ miles since 2010 I think I know pretty much how to fit my body to a bike and how to sort the bike out to it's purpose. Only computer required, my brain.

Wileyrat

So let me get this right.....

Tne OP is saying the bike I ride isn't good because I test rode a size smaller bike locally and knew the frame was too small, ordered a size bigger on line, and had them change out a few things to fit me, that it sucks because I didn't get a "proper fit"?

Whatever.

I guess riding bikes for decades doesn't mean anything

Eyedrop

I'm just an average roadie who has been riding for 6 years. Im a climber, and love going on group rides with the local fast guys, do occasional one-off races, and try to train intelligently. I obsess over ways to improve performance as a hobby. My FTP is only 4.2 watts/kg, or somewhere around CAT 3 level. I dont have a ton of natural ability, but do the best I can and am still learning. I typically ride 5k miles a year in the mountains at elevation.

I am by no means a professional rider, or a biomechanics specialist. I went through 6 different bikes, countless saddles, and traditional LBS fits that got me to 90% of ideal before finally throwing my hands in the air and seeing a specialist who is world class. I am one of those people that got a bike fit from a real fitter and got a 300% improvement. I spent the money for him to make recommendations that were in my best interest, and the guy knew what he was talking about. His agenda was not to simply sell bikes or his fitting services. You can tell the man has a passion for what he does. I wont name the individual unless its asked, as I dont want to come across as a shill any more than I already have.

It is simply my opinion that its difficult to go wrong by spending $200 to get the fit done first. Just give it a shot on your next purchase I guess? If you normally get bike fits, your gonna need followups after the purchase anyway, as well as seasonal adjustments, checkups, etc... Its also important to keep up with PT related stuff and work on functional strength and flexibility... And indeed, your fit will change with time. Any good fitter will tell you that.

The slightest adjustment here or there really can make all the difference for some folks. Others, not so much, so the value may not be there if you got lucky. Still, I believe if your spending an extra $100 for a lighter cassette, $200 on a pair of sunglasses, or obsessing over every last gram, it is my opinion that spending the $200 on an "ideal" stationary bike fitting BEFORE and after purchase is well worth the extra few watts and comfort gained, piece of mind, and the relationship you establish with your fitter. I find myself getting more out of the sport when the bike truly fits like a glove. Thats just me...

Now that I know how my bikes should feel, Ive adjusted my old bikes to have the same saddle height, reach to hoods and drops, saddle fore-aft, etc.. But you know what? It still doesn't feel quite right due to the differing position of the bottom bracket. Sure, the bikes are tolerable and "fit", but on the longer rides, or intense situations, I feel like the precision makes a tangible and objective difference.

If your happy with your method of fitting and purchasing bikes, more power to you. Do whatever makes you happy in the end. My way is not the only highway, and people have their own methods and success stories. My arguments do not invalidate theirs. I will try to not be self absorbed, and am attempting to be as open minded as possible. Thanks...

Kontact 

Then why are you criticizing fitting methods you know nothing about?

HTupolev

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

If you've actually translated the fits in a basically precise way, the bottom bracket should be in exactly the same position relative to the saddle and handlebars and whatnot as on your other bikes.

If you're referring to the bikes still riding different despite having precisely-translated fit, that depends on lots of things and can vary dramatically even if two framesets have the same stack and reach.

Eyedrop

Because I got fed up wasting my time with trial and error type fitters, who admittedly didn't know what they were doing (in part because of the lack of tools and salesman agendas.)

I am not necessarily criticizing old school methods. Im sure guys like Steve Hogg are excellent fitters without the use of computers. His reputation speaks for itself. More power to him.

Maybe the most important thing is to find someone who knows what they are doing, regardless of the tools. I guess it just makes logical sense to me that tools like an adjustable stationary bike and saddle pressure analysis can really help whittle down your purchasing options vs. walking into a world class fitter with a random bike and expecting an ideal situation. That was the main point of this thread. It just makes more sense to me.

If your using a different method, it doesn't make you wrong. Its just your opinion and the way you go about your business.

Kontact 

The point of your thread got lost in your tone and criticism of topics beyond your experience.

Eyedrop

I haven't bothered taking the old bikes in for a precise replica of my unicorn bike. I've done it by feel and a tape measure, swapping stems and getting setback seat posts if necessary, trying to simulate it. The bikes just don't feel quite right. Maybe its the the other things like head tube and seat tube angles, trail, frame material, wheelset, etc... In which case your logic seems correct that the stack and reach isn't the only determining factor in on how the bikes ride. I can tell you the handling and my center of gravity on the bikes feel different. Keep in mind, the S&R measurements are way different between them. I'm sure it would help to dial in my fit coordinates precisely rather than going off feel and a tape measure...

Ive always wondered about pro riders and how they feel about being limited to sponsor bikes that may be less than ideal. You would think the teams would invest in custom frames and just paint the sponsor logo on it... This used to be the case a long time ago but now the pros seem to be riding the same bikes as the average Joe...

eja_ bottecchia

Oh the humanity!

Eyedrop

Thanks for clarifying that to me. I wasn't self aware or honest with the audience (sarcasm)...

Why don't you contribute more to the topic of fit-first bike fitting? You sound like an expert, so please share your knowledge.

Kontact 

I contribute fit information all the time. But it would be a waste to add something substantive to this thread.

Tape2012

+1. He sounds like my golfing buddy who considers every bad round a justification to spend more money. Some people get into the sport for the cool equipment, some just want to ride. To each his own, as long as you don't tell everyone else they're doing it wrong.

And FYI, being passionate is not an excuse for being a jackhole.

Eyedrop

Your insults are so valuable to me. Im beginning to see the light...

Eyedrop

Will someone please delete this thread? It obviously offers zero valuable information and has turned into a bunch of losers whining about how I sound like I'm right all the time.

Machka 

So ... why did you start the thread? What was the point? What were you hoping to accomplish?

After all, you felt it was necessary to start this thread.


.

Kontact 

I wasn't insulting you. I was pointing out that the reaction to the thread is so universally negative that putting a factual discussion into at this point isn't going to get any readership.


Your intent in writing the OP was fine, it just got lost in matters outside the main idea - don't spend big money on a bike if you aren't going to make sure it will fit you.

Eyedrop

I started the thread so I could call people idiots for not using a fit-first approach to buying a bike. It gave me great pleasure.