Be nice
02-03-21 | 12:11 AM
#26
Sunshine
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 18,699
Likes: 10,236
From: Des Moines, IA
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
This place has an upvote, but needs a downvote.
02-03-21 | 12:20 AM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 571
Likes: 128
From: By theBeach and Palos Verdes, CA adjacent
Bikes: One of each: Road, Hybrid, Trekking
02-03-21 | 08:28 AM
#28
Zip tie Karen
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,005
Likes: 1,546
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
Way back when I was tentatively learning about bikes, there were fewer options. You could hang out at a bike shop and ask a lot of questions, which depended entirely on the personalities of the shop and the person asking. Or you could read bicycling magazines, and those contained quite a bit of new product information. Then there were books that usually focused on introductory maintenance, basics of bike types, gearing, and the like.
I did all three. With a passion. I also had a group of riding friends who were gaining experience about what worked and what didn't. We weren't technical or "inside the industry", but we were observant and learning the rudiments of day-to-day operations on our particular bikes, a great teacher. It was during the boom. There was a lot to see and a ton to know.
Fast forward three generations - and here we are, on a web discussion board. Folks wander in and ask questions. Some folks have been hanging around the bike shop a long time. They/we swap parts, frames, stories and the like. Other folks stay in the shop, too. These folks often repeat themselves. Their take on things is at times askew, maybe influenced by their particular experiences and (to some degree) their mental state. Only the moderators can decide whether to kick them out of the shop or not.
I did all three. With a passion. I also had a group of riding friends who were gaining experience about what worked and what didn't. We weren't technical or "inside the industry", but we were observant and learning the rudiments of day-to-day operations on our particular bikes, a great teacher. It was during the boom. There was a lot to see and a ton to know.
Fast forward three generations - and here we are, on a web discussion board. Folks wander in and ask questions. Some folks have been hanging around the bike shop a long time. They/we swap parts, frames, stories and the like. Other folks stay in the shop, too. These folks often repeat themselves. Their take on things is at times askew, maybe influenced by their particular experiences and (to some degree) their mental state. Only the moderators can decide whether to kick them out of the shop or not.
02-03-21 | 08:41 AM
#29
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
I have something a lot like a downvote, a lot of times I make posts like this disappear. Predicting a thread will fail is one way to help it fail. That's why the abbreviation for "in before the lock" is now in the censor. ****
I know the OP works pretty hard to get the reaction that he gets. OTOH, it would be nice if people wouldn't chase away newbies. The anti-spam measures on this site are required, but oftentimes make it difficult for newbies to get their point across, especially if a picture is required to understand what they are talking about. The bike mechanics section seems particularly prickly. I know why some people feel threatened by this thread, and maybe they should think about it.
I know the OP works pretty hard to get the reaction that he gets. OTOH, it would be nice if people wouldn't chase away newbies. The anti-spam measures on this site are required, but oftentimes make it difficult for newbies to get their point across, especially if a picture is required to understand what they are talking about. The bike mechanics section seems particularly prickly. I know why some people feel threatened by this thread, and maybe they should think about it.
02-03-21 | 08:48 AM
#30
Sunshine
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 18,699
Likes: 10,236
From: Des Moines, IA
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Ha, I hadnt noticed the abbreviation is no longer around, but since you mention it- it seems like I havent seen it for some time now.
02-03-21 | 09:16 AM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 10,296
Likes: 14,743
I have something a lot like a downvote, a lot of times I make posts like this disappear. Predicting a thread will fail is one way to help it fail. That's why the abbreviation for "in before the lock" is now in the censor. ****
I know the OP works pretty hard to get the reaction that he gets. OTOH, it would be nice if people wouldn't chase away newbies. The anti-spam measures on this site are required, but oftentimes make it difficult for newbies to get their point across, especially if a picture is required to understand what they are talking about. The bike mechanics section seems particularly prickly. I know why some people feel threatened by this thread, and maybe they should think about it.
I know the OP works pretty hard to get the reaction that he gets. OTOH, it would be nice if people wouldn't chase away newbies. The anti-spam measures on this site are required, but oftentimes make it difficult for newbies to get their point across, especially if a picture is required to understand what they are talking about. The bike mechanics section seems particularly prickly. I know why some people feel threatened by this thread, and maybe they should think about it.
Its easy to delete posts that cross some discrete line, but it's much harder to create a culture in which people post "meaningfully and intelligently." My point above is that, when some people chronically post way outside of what almost everyone else regards as "meaningfully and intelligently," then social norms are going to be enforced by someone. It seems a conundrum that this norm enforcement sometimes brings sanction, but the useless posts and threads apparently go unchecked.
I don't envy the mods, and I do appreciate their contributions to keep this forum moving in a productive direction - so please don't interpret this as criticism. I'm just raising an issue (as I see it) without really having a good solution. I would liken this to the process of having a class discussion: you sincerely want everyone to feel comfortable contributing, and you must give everyone a chance -- but a student who is both enthusiastic and unprepared is a time-waster at best, and a misleader at worst, and needs to be handled appropriately. And after 35+ years, I am still trying to master that balance.
Last edited by Koyote; 02-03-21 at 09:21 AM.
02-03-21 | 09:33 AM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 45,140
Likes: 23,331
I am confused. I thought threads and posts, at least in this sub-forum, are supposed to be about cycling, not about the way people post about cycling.
02-03-21 | 10:04 AM
#33
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 1,066
From: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
If we're going to have an actual discussion about this, here are my thoughts. Feel free to tear into me.
The mods enforce rules which enforce certain norms regarding foul and inappropriate language, name-calling, sock puppetry, and the like. But there seems no way to reliably enforce the forum guideline that I posted above, in post #8, which recommends that people post intelligent and meaningful information. At least, the mods seem to do nothing about it. (Though they might send private messages to some posters; I don't know.)
I think most people on bf are actually pretty tolerant of newbies who ask for advice on chain lube and whether disc brakes are superior to rim brakes. Sure, there might be a few tongue-in-cheek posts ("Oh, no, not another chain lube thread!"), but I don't see rudeness very often. And I think most bf'ers are pretty tolerant of people who make mistakes -- say, people who post verifiable info that turns out to be incorrect; it helps if the person acknowledges the error -- but with this being the internet, that happens rarely.
However, I think that most of us have our limits, and some posters really push against those limits: people who repeatedly post information that is off-topic and even inaccurate, who post topics to the wrong forums, who derail threads. People who feel compelled to tell others how they should ride, what types of machines they should ride, how they should fit, etc -- especially when such "advice" was never requested in the first place. That is NOT being "nice" -- it is presumptuous, haughty, and potentially harmful to forumers who don't yet know how to separate good info from nonsense. And it often violates the guideline referenced above, which recommends that we post intelligently and meaningfully.
When a poster repeatedly, chronically, violates that guideline, some other posters are bound to act as many would in "real life": by telling the insulting time-waster to stop wasting time. And in response to the suggestion that we can all just skip the posts and threads that we find stupid: how do we know they are stupid until we have already wasted our time on them?
The mods enforce rules which enforce certain norms regarding foul and inappropriate language, name-calling, sock puppetry, and the like. But there seems no way to reliably enforce the forum guideline that I posted above, in post #8, which recommends that people post intelligent and meaningful information. At least, the mods seem to do nothing about it. (Though they might send private messages to some posters; I don't know.)
I think most people on bf are actually pretty tolerant of newbies who ask for advice on chain lube and whether disc brakes are superior to rim brakes. Sure, there might be a few tongue-in-cheek posts ("Oh, no, not another chain lube thread!"), but I don't see rudeness very often. And I think most bf'ers are pretty tolerant of people who make mistakes -- say, people who post verifiable info that turns out to be incorrect; it helps if the person acknowledges the error -- but with this being the internet, that happens rarely.
However, I think that most of us have our limits, and some posters really push against those limits: people who repeatedly post information that is off-topic and even inaccurate, who post topics to the wrong forums, who derail threads. People who feel compelled to tell others how they should ride, what types of machines they should ride, how they should fit, etc -- especially when such "advice" was never requested in the first place. That is NOT being "nice" -- it is presumptuous, haughty, and potentially harmful to forumers who don't yet know how to separate good info from nonsense. And it often violates the guideline referenced above, which recommends that we post intelligently and meaningfully.
When a poster repeatedly, chronically, violates that guideline, some other posters are bound to act as many would in "real life": by telling the insulting time-waster to stop wasting time. And in response to the suggestion that we can all just skip the posts and threads that we find stupid: how do we know they are stupid until we have already wasted our time on them?
02-03-21 | 10:07 AM
#34
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 1,066
From: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
02-03-21 | 10:20 AM
#35
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 1,066
From: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Way back when I was tentatively learning about bikes, there were fewer options. You could hang out at a bike shop and ask a lot of questions, which depended entirely on the personalities of the shop and the person asking. Or you could read bicycling magazines, and those contained quite a bit of new product information. Then there were books that usually focused on introductory maintenance, basics of bike types, gearing, and the like.
I did all three. With a passion. I also had a group of riding friends who were gaining experience about what worked and what didn't. We weren't technical or "inside the industry", but we were observant and learning the rudiments of day-to-day operations on our particular bikes, a great teacher. It was during the boom. There was a lot to see and a ton to know.
Fast forward three generations - and here we are, on a web discussion board. Folks wander in and ask questions. Some folks have been hanging around the bike shop a long time. They/we swap parts, frames, stories and the like. Other folks stay in the shop, too. These folks often repeat themselves. Their take on things is at times askew, maybe influenced by their particular experiences and (to some degree) their mental state. Only the moderators can decide whether to kick them out of the shop or not.
I did all three. With a passion. I also had a group of riding friends who were gaining experience about what worked and what didn't. We weren't technical or "inside the industry", but we were observant and learning the rudiments of day-to-day operations on our particular bikes, a great teacher. It was during the boom. There was a lot to see and a ton to know.
Fast forward three generations - and here we are, on a web discussion board. Folks wander in and ask questions. Some folks have been hanging around the bike shop a long time. They/we swap parts, frames, stories and the like. Other folks stay in the shop, too. These folks often repeat themselves. Their take on things is at times askew, maybe influenced by their particular experiences and (to some degree) their mental state. Only the moderators can decide whether to kick them out of the shop or not.
So some of us old guys are pretty well steeped in many subjects of cycling. We learned, and now a lot of new people want to learn too. Lets -------------be nice------------and share our knowledge when they ask questions, even questions some think they shouldnt be asking.
02-03-21 | 10:24 AM
#36
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,849
Likes: 750
From: Pasadena, CA
Bikes: Schwinn Varsity
I'd like to apologize for my past posts.. and in advance.. for hurting anyone's F'ing feelings. I am so, so sorry.........
02-03-21 | 10:31 AM
#37
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
The people least equipped to comment about moderation seem to have taken over this thread so I'm closing it. We don't allow discussion of our moderation approach in public posts. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask. However, we will not answer any questions about sanctions against other members.
There is a pretty clear line about harassing people here, and most of the self-appointed intelligence moderation patrol fall afoul of it pretty often, thus the sanctions. Intelligence is a spectrum and it's quite difficult to do anything about a lack of it. We certainly have banned people for what you might call a lack of intelligent posts that caused too many problems. But usually they are harassed into active trolling before they go. Not really fair, but there is only so much disruption we can take. However, some people apparently need to reflect on where they fall vis-à-vis the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The moderation team discusses problematic posts before taking action. We don't want to over-moderate, but winter and isolation due to the pandemic have driven a lot of people crazy. Personally, I would rather not have to do any moderating other than banning spammers, which is kinda fun.
There is a pretty clear line about harassing people here, and most of the self-appointed intelligence moderation patrol fall afoul of it pretty often, thus the sanctions. Intelligence is a spectrum and it's quite difficult to do anything about a lack of it. We certainly have banned people for what you might call a lack of intelligent posts that caused too many problems. But usually they are harassed into active trolling before they go. Not really fair, but there is only so much disruption we can take. However, some people apparently need to reflect on where they fall vis-à-vis the Dunning-Kruger effect.
The moderation team discusses problematic posts before taking action. We don't want to over-moderate, but winter and isolation due to the pandemic have driven a lot of people crazy. Personally, I would rather not have to do any moderating other than banning spammers, which is kinda fun.
02-03-21 | 11:24 AM
#38
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 34,324
Likes: 8,478
From: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Addendum
I snicker.It's incredible to me that of the hundreds of frequent, everyday posters we have in the Road and General forums, that there are just a few who have a problem with treating fellow posters with respect and find this thread objectionable. Imagine, just IMAGINE someone suggesting we should be nice to our fellow posters. The unmitigated GALL!!!
Why is that? Why just a predictable few? How does that quote go -- "He doth protest too much"?
I've said it before and I'll say it once more . . . don't worry about whether a post is "meaningful and intelligent" by your standards. That's your personal opinion. The real challenge is whether you can control your instincts to be a moth drawn to a flame. When you find a thread or a post with posts that don't meet your personal criteria, ignore them and go find a thread you like better. Mind your business. Keep your nose clean and stay out of trouble. Resist the urge to be an internet bully, because we don't like bullies. Let that "misguided, ignorant and uninformed" poster stew in his own misfortune. Celebrate your superiority. Let his posts wither on the vine because nobody responds, if it's that unintelligent. Just go away and mind your business, everybody in the world can't be as smart and savy as you.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
