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The Etiquette of Drafting

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The Etiquette of Drafting

Old 12-03-21, 12:13 PM
  #51  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The answer is simple: ANNOUNCE.I don't care if you are selfish, simple, socially awkward, whatever. if you are going to pull up close to another cuyclist announce your presence. That way the other cyclist can make a choice. Otherwise, if said cyclist sits up to take a drink, eat some food, catch a breath or just take a rest Ö.. you donít become a projectile.
On our group ride one night, the pack had broken up on our way back into town. Another person and I were riding along, side-by-side, going into the sun. We were chatting as we cruised along at about 22mph. At one point, we rode right by some chunk of debris in the road - we didn't see it due to the sunlight, but we just happened to pass by, one of us on either side of this fist-sized piece of broken tarmac. We just lucked out. Then, from behind us, we heard a loud "pop," then a moment of silence, then the terrible sound of man and machine hitting and tumbling along the pavement. We had no idea that we were being drafted, much less that he was riding behind and in-between us.

Even if we'd known he was back there, I'm not sure that I could've pointed out that debris in time. But I didn't even know he was there. Poor guy: it was his very first ride on a new high-end bike, which got a bit banged up. 'Course, he also got to ride in a helicopter that night, so that was kind of exciting.
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Old 12-03-21, 12:21 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
'Course, he also got to ride in a helicopter that night, so that was kind of exciting.
it is a really good joke and a really unfortunate outcome.
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Old 12-03-21, 12:34 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
....since you mentioned being a newish rider yourself, it may not be safe for you to draft another rider as you may not have the skills for it yet. Get lots of miles riding in groups, it will teach you the necessary skills to ride in a tight formation.
This is great advice. If you're a newish rider and haven't done a lot of group riding where pacelines are common, drafting someone could put you or the person you're drafting in a dangerous situation.
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Old 12-03-21, 12:51 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
You do not own the road.

You do not own the road behind your bicycle.

You do not own the air behind your bicycle.

You do not control everything around you.
I don`t own the road , I don`t own the air but I have the ability and I have a right to prevent being drafted.
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Old 12-03-21, 12:51 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post

Frankly, in just about any other context, following someone this closely would be considered negligent at best and possibly (criminally) threatening behavior. Just because you're on a bicycle doesn't make you immune from basic legal norms.
Legality aside, this type of behavior does seem inappropriate unless both people are consenting to it. Can you imagine walking super close behind someone on a hiking trail or sidewalk, and not saying anything to them?

It's also worth noting that uninvited drafting can be perceived wildly different depending on male vs female, time of day, location, etc. I'm a middle aged man, so the context of me being totally ok with random people jumping on my wheel while I'm out on a Sunday morning ride is a lot different than it might be for a young woman riding alone at night.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:02 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
On our group ride one night, the pack had broken up on our way back into town. Another person and I were riding along, side-by-side, going into the sun. We were chatting as we cruised along at about 22mph. At one point, we rode right by some chunk of debris in the road - we didn't see it due to the sunlight, but we just happened to pass by, one of us on either side of this fist-sized piece of broken tarmac. We just lucked out. Then, from behind us, we heard a loud "pop," then a moment of silence, then the terrible sound of man and machine hitting and tumbling along the pavement. We had no idea that we were being drafted, much less that he was riding behind and in-between us.

Even if we'd known he was back there, I'm not sure that I could've pointed out that debris in time. But I didn't even know he was there. Poor guy: it was his very first ride on a new high-end bike, which got a bit banged up. 'Course, he also got to ride in a helicopter that night, so that was kind of exciting.
The group rides I do are fairly large, so I guess I'm used to random people hopping on. We might roll out with 25-30 and the group will grow to 40-50 by the time we turn around, then shed riders on the way back.

I've been in the situation you describe many times and often end up in smaller random groups heading back into town. Half the time the people we end up riding in with weren't even on the original ride and I never know how many riders are behind me unless I check over my shoulder.

It's fine, I've never thought any of that was a problem in the context of road group rides.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:21 PM
  #57  
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I hope no one will take this as trolling, but I really would like to see a debate between 79pmooney and 63rickert just because of the screen names.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:21 PM
  #58  
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Wasn’t there a movie that depicted a fairly efficient way to rid yourself of an unwanted rider?

John
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Old 12-03-21, 01:32 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
The group rides I do are fairly large, so I guess I'm used to random people hopping on. We might roll out with 25-30 and the group will grow to 40-50 by the time we turn around, then shed riders on the way back.

I've been in the situation you describe many times and often end up in smaller random groups heading back into town. Half the time the people we end up riding in with weren't even on the original ride and I never know how many riders are behind me unless I check over my shoulder.

It's fine, I've never thought any of that was a problem in the context of road group rides.
I think that's a very different context than the solo rider situation because the group riders know someone is very, very likely to be there behind, plus they're obviously used to being drafted. I don't group ride with more than 1 or 2 people precisely because I don't want to coordinate my riding with a committee and also have to rely on the skills of a bunch of people, any one of whom could be the weak link that breaks the chain.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:33 PM
  #60  
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Old 12-03-21, 01:34 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Wasnít there a movie that depicted a fairly efficient way to rid yourself of an unwanted rider?

John
Hard to do from in front of them.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:34 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Wasnít there a movie that depicted a fairly efficient way to rid yourself of an unwanted rider?

John

This one?

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Old 12-03-21, 01:35 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Hard to do from in front of them.

But it looks like the Italian guy is helping him if you run the film backwards.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:42 PM
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Wasn’t there a movie that depicted a fairly efficient way to rid yourself of an unwanted rider?

John
Yep. Breaking Away, the scene where the Italian rider shoves a pump into Dave's front wheel causing him to crash. Great movie and a great scene because it brought Dave back down to reality and made him more determined.
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Old 12-03-21, 01:59 PM
  #65  
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I don't know what "fair" has to do with it unless you're racing. Even then Pogacar has proven that you can get a free ride all the way up to the podium if you do it right.
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Old 12-03-21, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
Yep. Breaking Away, the scene where the Italian rider shoves a pump into Dave's front wheel causing him to crash. Great movie and a great scene because it brought Dave back down to reality and made him more determined.

Little known fact--that scene was one of the underlying causes of WW II.

I've still never managed to sit through that entire movie and I remain skeptical that a pump could actually be inserted as depicted. Definitely don't try it on an unwanted drafter.
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Old 12-03-21, 02:14 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
I don't know what "fair" has to do with it unless you're racing. Even then Pogacar has proven that you can get a free ride all the way up to the podium if you do it right.
Didn't Pogacar win the individual time trial stages in both of his Tour de France wins?
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Old 12-03-21, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
Didn't Pogacar win the individual time trial stages in both of his Tour de France wins?
I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to his wheel sucking all the way up the mountain on his first win. Obviously his competitors are fine with it, so maybe it wasn't as it seemed to me.
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Old 12-03-21, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Situational.

I'm a solo rider, so I'm going to go whatever speed I would normally go at and if someone wants to tuck in front of me and go as fast as I normally would or better, I'm going to stay behind them until I want to do otherwise. They know I'm there because they put me there so the awareness and etiquette are all fair game.

I have no idea how I'd handle this in a place as windy as where you ride, however. We get high winds where I ride from time to time, but nothing systematic like that. I'd think you might be somewhere where there's some unspoken rules that wouldn't apply elsewhere. From SapInMyBlood 's post, I suspect that might be the case.
The winds aren't THAT bad.

The cycle paths in Perth are just wide, with good visibility down the track, and few pedestrians along some of the main stretches by the River side.

On my 5-6am morning commutes it's easy to have little drafting games with other skilled riders. When i show up to a group ride with a new club, I don't know any of them or their skills either but it's generally fair to say that in strong group rides (35-40kph avg) you can safely expect skilled riders. Similarly, those who can hold onto you for a 40kph avg are probably not your average Joe on a hybrid cruiser (sorry Larry)
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Old 12-03-21, 03:33 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
And what kind of reasoning is "their unsafe behavior is going to hurt them worse than you so don't worry about it" anyway?79pmooney really did a clumsy job of burden shifting here. As far as I'm aware, all vehicle codes, etc. are premised on the basis that the operator's primary attention should be focused on the road and vehicles ahead of him, and that it's the trailing operator's responsibility to maintain a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of them. This notion that I just assume the risk that someone will violate that every time I go out on a road and should therefore, I guess, just lump it is crazy. And if they do hit me or pretty much anybody from behind, they can expect to be sued successfully.
I am not sure what you are asking me.

I don't think I said the lead rider is immune to injury.

From my experience in criteriums where there is a lot of contact, the rider behind is the one most likely to do down. Not always but most likely. At my age, I am not sure I have the reflexes if someone overlaps wheels or if I brake and we collide. I would probably crash. It is a big uncertainty and a risk that I do not want to take, which is why I handle it with the four steps mentioned earlier. If I am on my recumbent and it is flat, I just put the hammer down and drop them. On an upright, I am at their mercy
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Old 12-03-21, 03:37 PM
  #71  
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Only time I ever drafted was on a climb. I did not want to immediately overtake and then maybe blow up as he was not going that much slower than me, so I sat in for a few minutes and then went back to my desired watts and overtook.

I think drafting is dumb, you're on the open road, you're not a pro, you don't know the other person, just don't do it. Obviously with people you know it is a different story.
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Old 12-03-21, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I am not sure what you are asking me.

I don't think I said the lead rider is immune to injury.

From my experience in criteriums where there is a lot of contact, the rider behind is the one most likely to do down. Not always but most likely. At my age, I am not sure I have the reflexes if someone overlaps wheels or if I brake and we collide. I would probably crash. It is a big uncertainty and a risk that I do not want to take, which is why I handle it with the four steps mentioned earlier. If I am on my recumbent and it is flat, I just put the hammer down and drop them. On an upright, I am at their mercy
I was agreeing with your criticism of the post you were quoting. Sorry if that was unclear.
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Old 12-03-21, 04:08 PM
  #73  
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When you are tall, and are riding a big rig clipping along in the 4th windiest city in the country, inevitably there is some single speed hipster looking to hitch a ride. Usually a heavy ingestion of Taco Bell before riding keeps these bearded skinnyjeans drafters away. It's kind of like a repellent.

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Old 12-04-21, 09:47 AM
  #74  
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[QUOTE=Maelochs;22327748]....if someone rams me from behind ....... usually there is extreme carnage, as there is in almost every bicycle crash ...

The usual consequence of a bicycle crash is that everyone picks themselves up and gets back on the bike. If extreme carnage were the usual outcome cycling would be illegal. Why people who believe what you believe continue to ride is beyond me.

Rammed from behind is not what happens. The whole point of drafting is the two riders are matched in speed. And close. The rider behind would not be taking shelter in the front riders draft if he had some kind of hyperdrive that allowed instant ram speed. What does go wrong is overlapped wheels, then lateral movement. It takes a lot of stupid to make that happen, but it does. And is a good reason for riders who donít know each other to not draft. But it is a completely different accident from the imagined terror.

Wheel contact drills are stupid. They do happen, a few persist in that. I did that just once. Coach made me the target. And didnít bother telling me. My beef was mostly that Coach was taking money from his pupils and should not have been involving me in a commercial enterprise. First couple times one of the pupils hit my rear wheel I thought I had hit a twig or a pebble or maybe a tiny pavement blemish. When the knocks continued I started to wonder what sort of mechanical problem this might be. The whole exercise was totally not dramatic. No terror.

Of course the rider behind should announce. I draft far less than formerly because when I announce the most common response is no response. Because the person I am speaking to canít ride and talk at the same time. That is not a good person to ride with. If they just passed me and are going 1/2 mph faster than me drafting is kind of automatic. Most of them canít ride a straight line, canít make a steady pace, are way too erratic for me to want their wheel. So either I hit the brakes and hope they will pull away (half will pass and then fade) or pick up the pace and drop them. The momentary drafting is just another traffic situation. It happens.

Most following too close accidents happen at low speeds in heavy traffic. Doesnít have to be fast to get messy. The real world accidents again are completely different from the imagined horrors. Stop living in a world of imaginary problems.
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Old 12-04-21, 10:16 AM
  #75  
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Uh... Someone who talks about being trained specifically for a situation expecting people who haven't to react as if they did.. What could go wrong?

Contextually, the only correct part in that is to not draft unannounced or unwanted. Everything else is just "how it ought to be" conjecture.
There is no way of knowing what could happen if contact was made with an unknown rider, with unknown reactions, in a non closed circuit, non race setting. Maybe nothing, maybe only the rear rider goes down, maybe the forward person is sent headfirst into traffic.

There is a similar sight on freeways sometimes when some jackaninny thinks they are participating in an F1 race with others who are just commuting to work. Often the result of too much GTA. Usually they just look like jerks. Once in a while they cause a fender bender. Occasionally an ambulance gets called.

In the cycling sense it is usually caused by a wannabe or has been who has watched too much TDF and then hits the MUP instead of an actual organized ride to live out their racing fantasy. If people want to draft, find like minded riders. Don't creep strangers unannounced.

I like watching the Superbowl as much as the next guy - but it doesn't mean I want some unknown guy patting me on the hiney.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 12-04-21 at 10:25 AM.
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