mrodgers

What's the difference between people on a throttle e-bike going a lot faster than they should on an MUP vs. a road bike rider going a lot faster than they should on an MUP?

I know your answer. So I will give a follow up question in response. What is the difference between people on a throttle e-bike going a lot faster than they should on an MUP vs. a loaded touring bike rider going a lot faster than they should on an MUP? Now your answer of the increased weight of the e-bike is taken out of the comparison.

indyfabz

I have seen e-chairs on paved, multi-use trails. I would bet some can easily handle smooth, unpaved surfaces. And not all trails are "in the woods." We have trail segments around here that are the I-95 of bike trails. They even have their own rush hours.

Thing is, though, I have never seen one go nearly as fast as an e-bike is capable of going.

indyfabz

How often do you ride a loaded touring bike?

jon c. 

The difference is that the latter scenario is quite unlikely to be an issue. There just aren't many touring riders traveling at high speeds on MUPs.

A more likely scenario where I live would be a rider on a motorized bike with an I/C engine going faster than they should on an MUP. If electric motors are allowed on MUPs, why should a rider with a gasoline powered engine be banned?

shelbyfv

Yes.

3alarmer

...the manufacturer who first translates this tracked technology to the e-bike market will be able to sell them for 20,000 bucks each, and make a fortune.
Like this one, but with dual 750 watt motors and auxiliary battery packs where the IC engine used to sit. Is anyone from Specialized listening ?

PeteHski

It seems to me that the word "motorbike" is used mainly by the haters to mock those riding e-bikes of any variety. Nobody is pretending that e-bikes are not different from regular bikes, but most of them are a million miles away from what is commonly perceived as a "motorbike". Maybe that's why they are called e-bikes and have completely different regulations. The term e-bike is too broad a brush anyway without lumping them in with Honda Fireblades.

3alarmer

...not often, but when I do, I ride it at average speeds of 28 mph. I need to get where I'm going for that day, so I can rest.

3alarmer

...have you read the entire thread ? Isn't the topic exactly this...that there are a great many makers and sellers consciously imitating light trail motorcycle styling and performance, in pursuit of sales. And that more and more of them are showing up in real life.

...maybe. But maybe the industry as a whole is taking advantage of the term "bicycle", which is pretty innocuous, to design and sell a whole different sort of machine. Again, this is the heart of the discussion topic. Early success with avoiding regulations, sold to the various governmental entities by calling these "bicycles", is eventually getting clarified as a mistake. As in my Forest Service example. Sometimes this is how it works with new technologies...the problems become clearer as time goes on. Regulation and restriction follow, trying to address those problems.

Skillful lobbying by the people who make and sell them, appealing to the obvious benefits (and there are many obvious benefits when used responsibly and made and sold intelligently), gives way to a more realistic picture on the part of regulators.


...it's a problem that has been self created by the industry that makes and sells them. Blurring the lines has been standard practice, in order to avoid regulation.

3alarmer

...I bruised a rib three or four weeks ago, falling. Tripped on a tree root, while trotting some laps around the neighborhood soccer field. I feel your pain. Those guys who say running is stupid make a lot of sense.

indyfabz

And there is the rapid acceleration, or lack there of, factor with a loaded touring bike. I’ve seen plenty of instances where e-bikes have sped up quickly into oncoming bike traffic to pass a slower rider in front of them. I know better than to try that while riding a loaded bike. If I want to pass a slower rider in front of me I *gasp* wait until it’s safe to do so.

daihard 

Most likely we are. I'm talking about the typical mixed-use trails (called "MUPs") in the city, where both people on foot and on wheel travel. Looks like you're talking about off-road trails used for mountain biking and not for daily travels. MUPs are designated "non-motorized" trails, at least where I live.

squirtdad

Actually you do not know my answer but
1) mups are no place for speed for any rider, no discussion there, you need to be prepared slow down abd give right of way. too many kids, dogs, cats, aardavarks, people not paying attention to not be super aware
2) I have never seen a loaded touring bike on a MUP, but even so I would be surprised to see one doing over 20 mph

3) behavior and attitude is the issue, not the increased weight, I see the majority of people riding throttled ebikes never slow down or give right of way....kinda of I am fast I am empowered (I see similar with one wheels, electric scooters and the like.)

pedal assist riders seem to be the same mix as other riders, most courteous and a few clueless

it comes down to this
Throttled ebikes really are motorcycles, whether they have pedals or not, they are not designed to be pedaled as primary mode of power and I sure would not want to try to pedal 5 miles on one like this super 73

this super 73 markets motorcycle type tires, not need for license, insurance, registration

LarrySellerz

Ebikes a louder and the riders less likely to be used to riding close to other bikes, so they are less prone to close passes that surprise people. that is for bike lanes, no idea about MUPs

john m flores 

Was riding with family in Snow Canyon State Park in Utah back in March. The four of us, on pedal bikes, were in the clear minority on the MUP.

Likewise on a bikepacking trip in Vermont a couple of years ago. And earlier this summer on Montauk.

There are places where I feel like I'm stuck in the past on a penny farthing as the world zooms towards tomorrow.

This trend towards ebikes is only going to continue. I would not be surprised if they are a clear majority in the next 10 years, with all the political and lobbying power that goes with that

I hope they are kinder and understanding of us as we ride the kinds of bikes their grandparents used to ride.

wolfchild

They're both behaving like scofflaws so there is no difference at all between them.

SoSmellyAir

The answer is easy. There is no difference if one only considers a single point in time for each of the e-bike and the touring bike. However, it is significantly easier and takes much less time to go faster on the e-bike. Thus, it is likely that the e-bike would spend much more time at the higher speed than the loaded touring bike.

daihard 

Except the e-bike industry consists of manufacturers that don't necessarily have the same principle. I'm sure there are companies that caters to people who want to ride mototrbike-looking, high-powered, fat-tired "e-bikes" for sport. OTOH, makers like Riese & Müller, Urban Arrow and Tern, which focus on providing family and cargo e-bikes for tarnsport and utility.

Jan Feetz

Difference? A typical road bike rider (a roadie) has and knows the "rules".

3alarmer

...any manufacturer, in any industry, tries to make a product they can sell. Most of them engage in marketing. Yes, there are e-bike companies that focus on a practical, utility market. Are you suggesting that's the industry trend right now ? That's an interesting perspective. I wouldn't have known that, walking around over in store at the Spesh dealer here. I thought VanMoof put out a practical product, even if their production costs were high because of all the proprietary stuff, so they folded recently.

I'm unsure what your point is in stating this ? I know what I see for sale here, and I know what I see rolling around town. The sort of bikes you mention are a minority. But all of this is anecdotal. There are probably sales figures, but I'm not going to dig them out. I did recently read this:
Feel free to ignore it. I didn't write it.

daihard 

You've actually articulated my point, which is that some companies producing "e-bikes" that don't fit the existing e-bike classifications is not a problem of the "e-bike industry," but it is an issue that needs to be better regulated and enforced. I don't deny your anecdotes. I mean, I do see way more e-cargo bikes around me than those quasi motorbikes, but that's just as anecdotal. The "e-bike industry" isn't a single entity. IMO, it's not realistic or sensible to expect the industry to collectively act on the issue of powerful e-bikes.

Camilo

No, the difference is that since it's very easy for an ebike - throttle or not - to go too fast, there will be alot more people going too fast. Many going too fast is worse than a few going too fast.

Camilo

Huh. It seems you're wrong. Haters, yeah sure. An easy, cliche way of disparaging people who bring up sincere, real issues with this new technology. A two wheeled vehicle with a throttle that allows it to be propelled without pedaling is a motor bike by any common sense understanding.

3alarmer

...once more, and I think for the last time. Whether the "industry" as a whole created this problem, it's an industry created problem.
It's disingenuous to imply that better regulation and enforcement are needed, if the "industry" is not, at least in part, turning out problematic products.

I'm not sure who you hope to convince with this sort of semantics, but it's not me.

You've essentially now gone over to repeating what several of us have been saying in this thread from the start. There's stuff being made and sold in increasing numbers, that no longer fits the definition of "bicycle", but rather "motor vehicle". It's being advertised and sold as bicycles, because it makes it much easier to sell, to a wider range of buyers. That's thanks to people within the industry who are perfectly happy blurring the lines, because they can sell more product with less paperwork.

It will be the industry, as a whole, that will experience the blowback on this issue.

PeteHski

I see how you turned that around 180 degrees. Not all e-bikes even have a throttle and yet there are plenty of people on this forum labelling them ALL as “motorbikes” just because they can’t get over their own ego.

E-bike to me is simply a bike powered or assisted by an electric motor. The term alone says nothing about whether or not it is more like a “motorbike” or more like a “bicycle”. A large number of e-bikes are nothing more than bicycles with electric pedal assistance. Then there are those with more power and throttles that resemble “mopeds” and then there are actual electric motorbikes. No pedals and power to rival a conventional motorbike.