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Weight-Weenieism

Old 02-16-24, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
How far the bike rocks has more to do with range of motion and skeletal measurement ratios than with how much "work" it takes to rock the bike that far. It's obviously simpler to model a non-rocking bike, but I think that's an oversimplification.
Well Iím fairly sure the amount your bike rocks depends mostly on how much resistance there is to the rocking force. For example a rigid indoor trainer will rock far less than an outdoor road bike for the same force input.

You are also going to have to convince me that the gyroscopic forces are actually significant in determining how much your bike rocks, especially at low climbing speeds. Those gyroscopic forces are not large relative to the forces you are exerting. Plus we are talking about differences in the order of a few hundred grams on the wheels.
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Old 02-16-24, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Well Iím fairly sure the amount your bike rocks depends mostly on how much resistance there is to the rocking force. For example a rigid indoor trainer will rock far less than an outdoor road bike for the same force input.

You are also going to have to convince me that the gyroscopic forces are actually significant in determining how much your bike rocks, especially at low climbing speeds. Those gyroscopic forces are not large relative to the forces you are exerting. Plus we are talking about differences in the order of a few hundred grams on the wheels.
A rigid indoor trainer will have a threshold resistance that a freestanding bike won't have.
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Old 02-16-24, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
How far the bike rocks has more to do with range of motion and skeletal measurement ratios than with how much "work" it takes to rock the bike that far. It's obviously simpler to model a non-rocking bike, but I think that's an oversimplification.
I would be interested in seeing some factual information on this. The previous comment about heavier wheels having a greater gyro effect means that they require more force to lean over...wouldn't this also mean that they would be more resistant to being leaned over, and the bike will stay more upright? The leaning of a bike during standing pedaling is a reaction to the pedaling forces.
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Old 02-16-24, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
A rigid indoor trainer will have a threshold resistance that a freestanding bike won't have.
What does this mean?
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Old 02-16-24, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Jonathan: I need your help. Where can I buy a $1,500 disc brake frame with endurance geometry (i.e., stack:reach > 1.5) that I can build a 7 kg bike with?
Feel free to DM me, there's a whole other world of weight weenie bike components outside the mainstream of cycling. Being a weight weenie doesn't have to be very expensive!

Originally Posted by Maelochs
Real question.

I last built a bike in 2017. The 800-gram frame cost $800. The 105 (5800) group set cost I think $400. Wheels were about $500 (about 1500 grams.) Riding weight, with pedals, pump, tools and tubes, tail lights, no computer, was (I think) 16.25 or so. Really nice, light bike. Oh ... it has rim brakes.

The cost of each component has doubled, last I checked. And the disc version of the frame (which I wanted, but it was not available any more) would have weighed more, as would the brake components.

Please send the build list for your $1500 15-lb disc bike. I have the cash. I don't need the bike, but .... wow, i would like it.
One of my current disc road bikes clock in around 6.9kg with both cages, computer mount and pedals while running mechanical 11 speed Ultegra. Nothing fancy. The only areas where I cut significant weight over the standard stuff is going with a carbon crankset and opting to stay with clincher tires + TPU tubes (I don't like tubeless road tires). I have carbon wheels, but they're not even the lightest available. Plus my bike builds are daily riders, if I were to go full weight weenie, there's a bunch of ultra lightweight, but less durable components I could use.

Sheesh if I built a rim brake bike, I could probably do it in the 13-14 lbs. range!
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Old 02-16-24, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
I bought a titanium spoon to reduce the weight. Did I waste my money?

Yes, you wasted money because an aluminum spoon is lighter and cheaper.
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Old 02-16-24, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Yet, airlines manage to stay in business. I don't know much about how airlines operate to elaborate any further. It's just an observation of an example that is contrary to your statement.
Anything that runs on fossil fuels is heavily subsidized. Can you imagine how much a gallon of gas would cost if the cost of wars over oil and healthcare costs from pollution were incorporated into the price?
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Old 02-16-24, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
Anything that runs on fossil fuels is heavily subsidized.
Well, maybe not cruise ships. Took our first cruise last summer and was amazed at the amount of exhaust out of the stack, 24 hours a day, for four days.
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Old 02-16-24, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
What does this mean?
Once you lean the bike over a couple of degrees on a trainer it takes a lot more effort to topple the trainer over. Off the trainer a few more degrees is easy. In terms of gyroscopic inertia working against horizontal motion, a trainer is a completely different and not comparable system.
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Old 02-16-24, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Well, maybe not cruise ships. Took our first cruise last summer and was amazed at the amount of exhaust out of the stack, 24 hours a day, for four days.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Can you ellaborate?
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Old 02-16-24, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Can you ellaborate?
That I donít think cruise ships, which burn fossil fuel, are subsidized?
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Old 02-16-24, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
That I don’t think cruise ships, which burn fossil fuel, are subsidized?
Cruise ships run on fossil fuels, therefore they're subsidized.
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Old 02-16-24, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
Cruise ships run on fossil fuels, therefore they're subsidized.
How so?
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Old 02-16-24, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
How so?
The diesel/fuel oil used to run a cruise ship is refined from oil taken out of the ground. Taxpayers pay for wars over that oil (Trillions of dollars in the past few decades alone), taxpayers pay for the majority of healthcare related to pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, taxpayers pay the cost of direct subsidies to the oil industry, the list goes on - google is your friend.
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Old 02-16-24, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
The diesel/fuel oil used to run a cruise ship is refined from oil taken out of the ground. Taxpayers pay for wars over that oil (Trillions of dollars in the past few decades alone), taxpayers pay for the majority of healthcare related to pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, taxpayers pay the cost of direct subsidies to the oil industry, the list goes on - google is your friend.
Yeah, thatís what I thought. Your idea of subsidies and mine differs.

Bye.
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Old 02-16-24, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanf2
Feel free to DM me, there's a whole other world of weight weenie bike components outside the mainstream of cycling. Being a weight weenie doesn't have to be very expensive!



One of my current disc road bikes clock in around 6.9kg with both cages, computer mount and pedals while running mechanical 11 speed Ultegra. Nothing fancy. The only areas where I cut significant weight over the standard stuff is going with a carbon crankset and opting to stay with clincher tires + TPU tubes (I don't like tubeless road tires). I have carbon wheels, but they're not even the lightest available. Plus my bike builds are daily riders, if I were to go full weight weenie, there's a bunch of ultra lightweight, but less durable components I could use.

Sheesh if I built a rim brake bike, I could probably do it in the 13-14 lbs. range!
My daily rider (of late) is 14.4 pounds. It's due to save another 400-500 grams this September. What you are trading in price is reliability and performance gaurentees backed by real companies with guaranteed sound engineering and flawless execution.

There is no end to chinesium garbage available on Alibaba. I've seen it, touched it, and for enough money, installed it on customers bikes. Good luck to you. That is where I draw the line on where weight-weenieism stops. Onward! To where weight-weenieism begins!

Honestly, for myself it began with a set of 35mm Kenda Small Block 8's. I had swapped them out for some Vittoria Rubino Pro III Slicks and my world was changed. Of course, I didn't know then what I know now. But that was enough and the quest for a lighter bike has never been satiated.

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Old 02-16-24, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
The diesel/fuel oil used to run a cruise ship is refined from oil taken out of the ground. Taxpayers pay for wars over that oil (Trillions of dollars in the past few decades alone), taxpayers pay for the majority of healthcare related to pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, taxpayers pay the cost of direct subsidies to the oil industry, the list goes on - google is your friend.
Originally Posted by smd4
Yeah, that’s what I thought. Your idea of subsidies and mine differs.

Bye.
Your 'idea' is simply wrong. axelwik listed a few of the many subsidies given to fossil fuel production. There is no real debate about this among economists and energy policy experts, regardless of political leanings and affiliation. You can read more about it here and here, for starters.
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Old 02-16-24, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Your 'idea' is simply wrong. axelwik listed a few of the many subsidies given to fossil fuel production. There is no real debate about this among economists and energy policy experts. You can read more about it here and here, for starters.
Bye.
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Old 02-16-24, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Yeah, thatís what I thought. Your idea of subsidies and mine differs.

Bye.
Originally Posted by smd4
Bye.
So what is your idea of a subsidy, then?
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Old 02-16-24, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
I am not a physicist, I'm offering plausible physics- based frameworks that could validate what are at present subjective observations. In the case of rotating mass, I have not seen calculations that take into account gyroscopic inertia, but it makes sense that it would matter more than non-rotating mass.
A key part of determining whether something is plausible (from a physics perspective) is calculating or estimating the magnitude of the effect under consideration. Without that critical step, you can't conclude whether something is or is not plausible.

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Old 02-16-24, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by axelwik
Yes, you wasted money because an aluminum spoon is lighter and cheaper.
But a titanium spoon gives a smooth and springy taste. Aluminum spoons are too rigid and give a harsh taste. For some people, the taste is worth the expense. As previously mentioned by indyfabz, purple is the pinnacle of titanium spoonage.

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Old 02-16-24, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Well, maybe not cruise ships. Took our first cruise last summer and was amazed at the amount of exhaust out of the stack, 24 hours a day, for four days.
We have disagreed over many topics on these forums for a while however we have found a whole new area to explore, cruising! I have taken a few cruises (3) over the years. Caribbean, Mexican Riviera and Indian Ocean. Although I enjoyed the experience it felt like I was letting the old man in. How about you?
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Old 02-17-24, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by One Wheel
Once you lean the bike over a couple of degrees on a trainer it takes a lot more effort to topple the trainer over. Off the trainer a few more degrees is easy. In terms of gyroscopic inertia working against horizontal motion, a trainer is a completely different and not comparable system.
So on the trainer the bike just leans far less as you pedal. You donít put in any extra effort to make it rock as much as your road bike. It feels different because the resistance to rocking the bike is an order of magnitude higher unless you have a rocker plate installed.

Gyroscopic inertia just makes your bike fractionally more resistant to leaning over. I donít see how that requires more effort from the rider unless their aim is to rock their bike more than it naturally rocks under the load. The gyroscopic inertia just makes the bike fractionally more stable and is only really significant at high road speeds.
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Old 02-17-24, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
So what is your idea of a subsidy, then?
Dude! He said "Bye"! Twice!
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Old 02-17-24, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
So on the trainer the bike just leans far less as you pedal. You don’t put in any extra effort to make it rock as much as your road bike. It feels different because the resistance to rocking the bike is an order of magnitude higher unless you have a rocker plate installed.

Gyroscopic inertia just makes your bike fractionally more resistant to leaning over. I don’t see how that requires more effort from the rider unless their aim is to rock their bike more than it naturally rocks under the load. The gyroscopic inertia just makes the bike fractionally more stable and is only really significant at high road speeds.
Yes. It's tempting to impute effects of gyroscopic inertia to bicycle wheels that are just not there or are there but of trivial significance.

For instance, from this page:

[Gyroscopic forces are not important for the stability of a bicycle - as you can see if you read on below - but they help us to control the bike when riding with no hands. More important than anything is "the trail".]

Also, I'm not sure what the point is of suggesting that the opposition of gyroscopic forces to the forces generated by a rider in rocking the bike from side to side is bad or robs energy from the rider. It's like complaining that the starting block used for 100-meter dashes robs energy from the runner.

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