Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Old 04-06-24, 07:57 AM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

I hope we can use this thread to query the retro grouch community on border issues pertaining to equipment, cycling performance, expectations, etc.

So here is my question/point of discussion:

If disc brakes had come before rim brakes, would RGs still love rim brakes as much as they do?

I mean imagine if disc brakes were there first and then the idea of rim brakes came along? A brake that sacrifices the rim you say? I’m sticking with my tried and true sacrificial rotor to protect the wheel!
speyfitter is offline  
Likes For speyfitter:
Old 04-06-24, 08:31 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,840

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1955 Post(s)
Liked 2,200 Times in 1,338 Posts
It is not controversial. Classic car retro grouches convert from drum to disc because there are good conversion kits available. If discs brakes preceded drum brakes in the car world, drum brakes would not exist.

The same with bikes. Rim brakes would not exist if disc brakes preceded them. And for road bikes rim wear is pretty non-existent, especially hard anodized.

Retro grouch is a fluid term as it is generational; even index shifting is turning 40 this year.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Likes For 70sSanO:
Old 04-06-24, 08:57 AM
  #3  
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,443

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6262 Post(s)
Liked 4,284 Times in 2,402 Posts
You are making the mistake of assuming that rim brakes are not disc brakes. Converting drum brakes on cars to disc brakes was a great improvement. Hub mounted disc brakes are just making the “disc” smaller. A rim brake works exactly the same way as a hub mounted disc brake…they just have a much larger rotor.

As to rim wearing out, yes, it happens. It’s not a big a problem as many people make it out to be. I’ve had many more rims crack at the spoke holes than I’ve had wear out due to brake wear.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!




Last edited by cyccommute; 04-06-24 at 09:11 AM.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 11:13 AM
  #4  
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Posts: 20,732

Bikes: Fuji SL2.1 Carbon Di2 Cannondale Synapse Alloy 4 Trek Checkpoint ALR-5 Viscount Aerospace Pro Colnago Classic Rabobank Raleigh C50 Cromoly Hybrid Legnano Tipo Roma Pista

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3111 Post(s)
Liked 6,710 Times in 3,845 Posts
I just had to correct the spelling of grouches in the thread title.
__________________












cb400bill is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 11:17 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,997

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 305 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26477 Post(s)
Liked 10,442 Times in 7,245 Posts
.
...I thought the retro grouches were supposed to remain within the confines of the C+V forum ? Why would you start this thread in General Cycling ?
3alarmer is offline  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 04-06-24, 11:45 AM
  #6  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,803
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3772 Post(s)
Liked 5,725 Times in 2,891 Posts
Isn't there a section called Trollheim?
shelbyfv is online now  
Old 04-06-24, 12:15 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,488
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 642 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 410 Times in 281 Posts
Hydraulic rim brakes came before disk brakes. The reasons they were not as popular is the weight was undesirable to the racing crowd and people didn't like the idea of bleeding them. I have them on my Tandem and they are superior to hydraulic disk brakes in many ways. The drop bar lever versions are no longer made. If I had not needed frame couplers on my current bicycle I would use the Magura HS33s. Disk brakes are more costly and complicated. cyccommute is correct about the rim being a larger disk. The effect of rain on rim brakes is mostly diminished when using hydraulic rim brakes.
Rick is offline  
Likes For Rick:
Old 04-06-24, 12:26 PM
  #8  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute
You are making the mistake of assuming that rim brakes are not disc brakes. Converting drum brakes on cars to disc brakes was a great improvement. Hub mounted disc brakes are just making the “disc” smaller. A rim brake works exactly the same way as a hub mounted disc brake…they just have a much larger rotor.

As to rim wearing out, yes, it happens. It’s not a big a problem as many people make it out to be. I’ve had many more rims crack at the spoke holes than I’ve had wear out due to brake wear.
Your answer sounds like a reluctant revisionist RG who has lost faith in the rim brake, acknowledges the superiority of disc brakes, yet is stubbornly clinging to not want to admit it “on paper” by attempting to assert through some convoluted logic that they are the same.
speyfitter is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 12:39 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
zandoval's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,554

Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 999 Post(s)
Liked 1,676 Times in 1,077 Posts
Are Rim/Caliper Brakes easier to repair and adjust than Disk Brakes?

Do Rim/Caliper Brakes cost more than Disk Brakes?

Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use Disk Brakes?

Can you use Rim/Caliper Brakes on Carbon Rims?

Oddly I find the use of Disk-Brakes kinda like Indexed Shifting. Seems like everybody is converting over but me...
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
zandoval is online now  
Old 04-06-24, 12:56 PM
  #10  
All Campy All The Time
 
CroMo Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,419

Bikes: Listed in my signature.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 114 Times in 63 Posts
Hydraulic and/or mechanical disc brakes were being used on cars, trucks, busses, subway trains, airplanes, motorcycles, go karts, lawn mowers, etc. years before they became common on bicycles. So why did it take so long?

I decline to debate which is better. I have vintage bikes, they have rim brakes, they stop fine and still have anodizing on their rims after 40-50 years. Discs might be better, but they are just bikes fercrissakes,
__________________
My C&V Bikes:
1972 Bottecchia Professional, 1972 Legnano Olympiade Record,
1982 Colnago Super, 1987 Bottecchia Team C-Record,
1988 Pinarello Montello, 1990 Masi Nuova Strada Super Record,
1995 Bianchi Campione d'Italia, 1995 DeBernardi Thron









CroMo Mike is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 01:04 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,053

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4008 Post(s)
Liked 7,507 Times in 3,024 Posts
Originally Posted by zandoval
Q: Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use Disk Brakes?
A: No.

Q: Do you need special modifications to wheel sets to use rim brakes?
A: Yes, you need to add brake tracks.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 04-06-24, 01:13 PM
  #12  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,803
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3772 Post(s)
Liked 5,725 Times in 2,891 Posts
Bummer OP wasn't around 10-15 years ago when this "discussion" was relevant, or at least not
shelbyfv is online now  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 04-06-24, 01:22 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 2,126

Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked 1,972 Times in 952 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
Your answer sounds like a reluctant revisionist RG who has lost faith in the rim brake, acknowledges the superiority of disc brakes, yet is stubbornly clinging to not want to admit it “on paper” by attempting to assert through some convoluted logic that they are the same.
Funny. I'm not that mechanically inclined but understood the concept. He has given me good advice in the past so I'm biased that way.

Last edited by CAT7RDR; 04-06-24 at 02:31 PM.
CAT7RDR is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 01:25 PM
  #14  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
I hope we can use this thread to query the retro grouch community on border issues pertaining to equipment, cycling performance, expectations, etc.

So here is my question/point of discussion:

If disc brakes had come before rim brakes, would RGs still love rim brakes as much as they do?

I mean imagine if disc brakes were there first and then the idea of rim brakes came along? A brake that sacrifices the rim you say? I’m sticking with my tried and true sacrificial rotor to protect the wheel!
You're assuming one is better than the other while insulting those who don't care or have a different perspective. I have yet to destroy my rims due to wear or see anything other than user error (see what I'm doing here?!). If you want to limit and conform to manufacturers' latest money grab, it's your money, but don't dress it up as if it's the next sliced bread. It works better or not, depending on the environment, use case and skill level. Nothing more, nothing less.

Last edited by kcjc; 04-06-24 at 02:06 PM.
kcjc is offline  
Likes For kcjc:
Old 04-06-24, 02:20 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,757
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4564 Post(s)
Liked 5,095 Times in 3,144 Posts
Originally Posted by CroMo Mike
Hydraulic and/or mechanical disc brakes were being used on cars, trucks, busses, subway trains, airplanes, motorcycles, go karts, lawn mowers, etc. years before they became common on bicycles. So why did it take so long?
Reluctance to change and obsession with weight (still both lingering). Maybe cost too at the lower end of the market. Mountain bikes really paved the way for bicycle disc brakes and it was inevitable that they would eventually find their way onto all other types of bike.
PeteHski is online now  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 04-06-24, 02:27 PM
  #16  
Must be symmetrical
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 258

Bikes: ... but look, they're all totally different!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
I hope we can use this thread to query the retro grouch community on border issues pertaining to equipment, cycling performance, expectations, etc.

So here is my question/point of discussion:

If disc brakes had come before rim brakes, would RGs still love rim brakes as much as they do?

I mean imagine if disc brakes were there first and then the idea of rim brakes came along? A brake that sacrifices the rim you say? I’m sticking with my tried and true sacrificial rotor to protect the wheel!
Your premise is completely wrong. I run disc brakes with 559 and 622 mm rotors. The brakes work grate. Or the breaks work great. Whatever.

The fact is that disc brakes did not come first on bikes and there is a reason for that: they purport to solve a problem that didn't exist. So posing the counterfactual question makes little sense and isn't worth answering.

But i will: the fact that disc rotor diameter slowly approaches rim diameter over time suggests that eventually rim brakes will be back.
Frkl is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 02:32 PM
  #17  
Must be symmetrical
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 258

Bikes: ... but look, they're all totally different!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by cb400bill
I just had to correct the spelling of grouches in the thread title.
But Y? Isn't the misspleling teling?

Moderation should stop abuse, not save idiots form thereselfs.
Frkl is offline  
Likes For Frkl:
Old 04-06-24, 02:37 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,997

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 305 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26477 Post(s)
Liked 10,442 Times in 7,245 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Isn't there a section called Trollheim?
...in a very dark period in forum history, it got closed. It's a lot like when they closed down all the asylums, and put the inmates out on the street.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 02:41 PM
  #19  
Must be symmetrical
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 258

Bikes: ... but look, they're all totally different!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I thought the retro grouches were supposed to remain within the confines of the C+V forum ? Why would you start this thread in General Cycling ?
If it were posed in cv, where people might actually know something to constructively respond, the thread would die because all the curmudgeons would ignore it. Since we are busy polishing our silver rim brakes. In General, it will turn into a multi page thread filled with the standard stuff
Frkl is offline  
Likes For Frkl:
Old 04-06-24, 02:44 PM
  #20  
Must be symmetrical
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 258

Bikes: ... but look, they're all totally different!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...in a very dark period in forum history, it got closed. It's a lot like when they closed down all the asylums, and put the inmates out on the street.
I'm going to go adjust my friction shifters. Oh wait, they don't ever need to be adjusted. So i guess i'll just move on.
Frkl is offline  
Likes For Frkl:
Old 04-06-24, 02:44 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,757
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4564 Post(s)
Liked 5,095 Times in 3,144 Posts
Originally Posted by Frkl

But i will: the fact that disc rotor diameter slowly approaches rim diameter over time suggests that eventually rim brakes will be back.
This seems highly improbable.
PeteHski is online now  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 04-06-24, 03:01 PM
  #22  
Must be symmetrical
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 258

Bikes: ... but look, they're all totally different!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
This seems highly improbable.
Not that it will make a difference in changing your mind, but disc brakes on cars, and especially high performance cars, have gotten progressively larger in diameter until they are limited by the rim. But the rim on a bike doesn't limit in the way a car rim does.

either one goes for disc brakes or not, no one really cares any more , the arguments are all out there, and none are conclusive or convincing in either direction
Frkl is offline  
Likes For Frkl:
Old 04-06-24, 03:17 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Dave Mayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,507
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1379 Post(s)
Liked 483 Times in 282 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Reluctance to change and obsession with weight (still both lingering). Maybe cost too at the lower end of the market. Mountain bikes really paved the way for bicycle disc brakes and it was inevitable that they would eventually find their way onto all other types of bike.
Disc brakes were ported over to road bikes because our latest gen of road riders grew up on mountain bikes and are too young to know that there are a lot of so-called recent innovations that don't belong on road bikes. That is, these 'innovations' are heavy, fussy, expensive and unnecessary, and actually detract from performance road riding. But, what the hell, newer is always better, as it creates sales churn. Always sell the customer what he wants, not what he needs. So if he expects a suspension fork, dropper post, a huge pie-plate cassette, a 1 x drivetrain, and hydraulic discs with big rotors on a bike for just pavement: just let him have it. While the sales staff snicker on his way out the door.

Discs are the perfect example, along with tubeless and now hookless tubeless. Appropriate tech on a MTB, all sub-optimal on a high-end road bike.

You want the ultimate performance on a road bike, as in highest speed on pavement over a sustained period of time? Then you'll want a full carbon everything, rim brakes, tubulars, electronic shifting from circa 2015. No 2024 road bike can match this spec, no matter how much you spend.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 04-06-24, 03:32 PM
  #24  
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,443

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6262 Post(s)
Liked 4,284 Times in 2,402 Posts
Originally Posted by speyfitter
Your answer sounds like a reluctant revisionist RG who has lost faith in the rim brake, acknowledges the superiority of disc brakes, yet is stubbornly clinging to not want to admit it “on paper” by attempting to assert through some convoluted logic that they are the same.
No. I’m not reluctant nor a revisionist. I am a retro grouch that fails to see the supposed “superiority” of disc brakes having ridden mountain bikes from the early 80s onward and never having found any of the brakes on mountain bikes to be lacking. That includes cantilever, of which I have at 3 cantilever equipped bikes in my current stable of 9 bikes. That includes one that I load up with 40 to 50 lbs of extra gear and throw it down mountains at high rates of speed.

As to the mechanism, hub mounted discs and rim brakes are exactly the same. Rim brake calipers push brake pads into a spinning disc of metal using friction to slow and stop the bicycle…just as disc calipers push brake pads into a smaller spinning disc of metal. Any differences are in details only. The principle, however, is the same.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!



cyccommute is offline  
Likes For cyccommute:
Old 04-06-24, 03:35 PM
  #25  
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,443

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6262 Post(s)
Liked 4,284 Times in 2,402 Posts
Originally Posted by CroMo Mike
Hydraulic and/or mechanical disc brakes were being used on cars, trucks, busses, subway trains, airplanes, motorcycles, go karts, lawn mowers, etc. years before they became common on bicycles. So why did it take so long?
Well you kind of answered your own question

I decline to debate which is better. I have vintage bikes, they have rim brakes, they stop fine and still have anodizing on their rims after 40-50 years. Discs might be better, but they are just bikes fercrissakes,
​​​​​​​
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!



cyccommute is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.