So I think I can sum all this up, Campagnolo is in Financial trouble. They’re taking steps to address that including major work force cuts. Whether their restructuring will be successful remains to be determined.

I would hope that most any reasonable minded person could agree to that summary. Beyond that we are all speculating.

Well, the SRAM RED XPLR 13 speed cassette has a MSRP of 675 Euro. The SRW-X 13 speed cassette has a MRSP of 418 Euro. Just saying. Real prices can be very different but those are the MRSP prices for two very similar cassettes.

Also, I purchased a SRW-X 10-48 cassette and I paid full MRSP (bought at bike shop) and the cost was $625. The US price for the SRAM RED XPLR 13 cassette is $660.

The cost for this SRW13 is comparable to SRAM RED (similar product level).

So, it seems that it's SRAM cassettes that are actually premium priced, not Campy?

It is their RED group - the best they make and similar to Campagnolo SRW. They only make a 10-46, which is about 290 grams. The Campagnolo 9-42 is about 30 grams heavier.

I would say they are similar premium products. Nobody complained about the price of RED or the fact that it requires a special hanger.

In 2022, Ford said they were only going to make truck-based platforms, because they were higher profit. Their entry-level Ford Focus just stopped production in 2025. That was a good car. Their previous small cars, engineered in Europe, were also good.

Decades earlier, GM made a succession of small entry-level cars that were awful in design and quality. They had to break engineers off into a separate company, Saturn, in 1985 to make their first small cars of good design and quality, and with a "no-haggle" low fixed price. I owned one, great car. Then they let Saturn go the way of the other brands, sharing platforms, and they fell behind, and they eliminated the brand after the Great Recession. They made another competitive small car starting in 2008 with the Chevy Cruz, but ended that in 2023. A wagon version of that was available outside the USA, I would have bought that, a small wagon is super versatile.

Both Ford and GM are chasing high-profit segments, after visionary CEOs forced the company to produce good small cars, all that work for nothing.

Toyota and others make good entry cars.

Mercedes-Benz went the other direction, started with premium-segment sedans. Then mid-size (by Euro standards). Then their first small car, the 190, "The Baby", great car. Then the A-class and others. They have expanded their range because they knew they needed to. 'Benz USA derided the first Lexus (1990 LS400), "They have no tradition!" Then they brought one in to test, and balanced a nickel on the running engine at idle and through the rev range, just like the TV commercial and were like, "HOLY SH__!" (I know someone that worked there at the time). That woke them up, and they knew if they didn't build good entry cars, they were finished. And they did. However they had notable quality problems that cost customers $8000 to fix out of warranty, they didn't test well enough (Toyota has fabulous testing before production).

GM's Cadillac division makes a good smaller car as a "compact luxury/executive car" (segment), but it's way above entry level for most folks.

Thanks for that info, didn't know. From posts below, sounds like DA didn't take the lead for a while.

Thanks for the note about DA indexing, that helps explain things and the timing.

I have never seen that failure mode on a sprocket, ever. And, due to my professional past, the higher-stress failure location is obvious beforehand. It should either not have those lightening holes, or the metal flare inward at the slot to maintain section depth (which would obviate the weight savings of the lightening holes). Insufficient fatigue testing, possibly metallurgy issue with content and/or heat treat.

Regarding finding replacement parts easy and everywhere, The Car Talk guys used to say, "Never buy a French car, unless you live in FRANCE." Early 1990s, there was still Peugeot in the USA, but just a handful of dealers, hard to get parts. Yep. And note, historically, the French have made some of the best-selling, well-engineered entry-level cars in history, they hold records.

Thanks, that helps.

tomato coupe asked for examples of auto mfrs that suffered in the long run because they focused on the higher-end of the market; you have not given any examples -- ANY -- of such companies suffering. In fact, Ford's profits have increased significantly since 2022. (And by the way, Ford does not "only...make truck-based platforms." Ever heard of the Mustang? Also the Escape and the Bronco Sport, which are not based on truck platforms.)

The reason Ford doesn't make many passenger cars anymore is because they are a very small share of the market. Pickup trucks and SUVs dominate, and Ford's F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. (And for good reason, I might add, after buying one a few days ago. It's a bloody good truck.)

But again, you've not offered any support for your point. It's weird that you even responded.

Yeah, it's pretty silly to argue that business decisions that occurred 2-3 years ago have lead to "suffering long term:, since it's neither suffering nor long term.

It’s wrong that Shimano are profiting off the backs of the poor and disadvantaged.

For those of you arguing that Campagnolo is not premium priced well that even makes the situation even worse for them. Retail and OEM customers are not buying the product at equivalent prices, now what? Perhaps sell Super Record at Ultegra or Force prices.

Yes, I think Ford has reversed direction on their past decision, and is continuing to make car platforms.

Hmm... examples... good point. I'll think more on that regarding cars, my brain is a bit slow these days. I know more examples of companies that did not invest in keeping their top products competitive, and slipped down in the market, sometimes to oblivion.

But regarding abandoning entry level, the first example that comes to mind is IBM; After Apple's success with the Apple II with businesses (mostly accounting with the program VisiCalc, the first "killer app"), IBM put together a team to rapidly produce the IBM PC. It was wildly successful, as an entry level computer for businesses, and backed by the tremendous, mature support network of IBM. The director of the PC program wanted to go further, constantly increase the capability of it, sell to mainframe customers, and corporate complained and prevented that, as it would rob the company of mainframe sales, their big moneymaker. As detailed in the documentary Triumph of the Nerds, the PC leader said, "At that point I had a good opportunity to retire, and I took it." Two of the Deadly Business Sins, 1) seeking high profit margins and premium pricing, and 2) slaughtering tomorrow's opportunity on the altar of today. If you won't innovate and go after lower segments in the market, entry level, someone else will. The above is a very famous example in business teaching, starting with Drucker's The Five Deadly Business Sins, and expanding in future years:

druckers-five-deadly-sins-business

(And yes, this contradicts my first post on this thread; I'm capable of listening to others and admitting when I am wrong. :) )

Just to be clear, your previous post was fabricated -- you have not, in fact, seen car companies do what you claimed.


Fabricating something is not simply getting something wrong.

My memory at the time conflated (is that the right word?) different industries. It was not my intention to fabricate. Mea culpa.

As you get older, the disposable income means you can. So why not, you're not taking it with you.

How is that? You're not forced to buy it. Plenty of alternatives these days.

1)Probably because a premium groupset which has shown serious weaknesses after some thousand miles isn't worthy to be trusted and this despite a very hefty price tag. Hence why the super record parts 11s are back in their boxes.
2) The eating cable shifters weren't a Shimano only issue but a Campy issue too
3) Who would be exepecting a Campy Record cassette cog to break ? Nobody but fact that it did break makes everybody consider either a Dura Ace or Sram or even a Marchisio or PMP titanium made cassette for a much better durability without the insane pricetag.
4) Probably Atlas Shrugged got bored of the reliability problems of his 11speed record drivetrain and decide to put this bike on a wall.

That is the most laughable and ridiculous argument I have ever heard. So by the very same logic Campy is profiting of the back of the rich and the advantaged ? Your argument isn't holding. Shimano always had a groupset every person.In road groupsets in the 1990's, they had RSX, RX100, 105sc, Ultegra and Dura Ace and in MTB groupsets, they had Alivio, STX RC,Deore LX, XT and XTR, these have always been attractively priced and allowed every person to get a bike with a good to top quality transmission. If you aren't a Shimano guy and can't buy Shimano parts there are Sensa and Ltwo, even though not as well made and smooth as Shimano, they offer a very decent quality for the price. You always do a math before buying spare parts before spending on a bike project, that is always important to know the cost and how much it can impact on you financially.

You misunderstood "It's wrong that Shimano are profiting off the backs of the poor and disadvantaged." The poor and disadvantaged he had in mind were not the customers buying Shimano components. He was referring to those who work in the factories contracted to manufacture the components under conditions not far from slavery.

Thanks for the clarification and the heads up which I value and appreciate greatly

Is Shimano manufacturing in Japan, or China or some other southeast Asian country? I haven't been to Japan in many years, but labor working conditions there used to be pretty good, clean and bright, unions, a lot of subsidized stuff, and often lifetime employment. My gripe with Japan is if you didn't do great in school and were not accepted to a college or university, you went into labor, and there were no second chances. A lot of suicides related to that, or people in school getting a bad grade.

In the USA, I did awful in primary school, worked in labor a couple years under much worse conditions, went back to school at community college while working at better and better jobs, transfered to a university, and became an engineer, it just took me 9 years for a 4-year degree.

China, I have heard that labor conditions are much worse. People in prison are subjected to slave labor for things like peeling garlic for export, I don't know about manufacturing.

It's likely been decades since Shimano did any significant amount of manufacturing in Japan.

From a quick search:

"Yes, Shimano has faced significant criticism regarding the working conditions and alleged labor abuses in its contracted factories, particularly a Malaysian supplier called Kwang Li Industry."

No one has made that argument.

You keep making stuff up.

Your attempt to make an anti-Campy case out of those photos is really pathetic. Your logic concerning a bunch of boxes and a bike hanging on the wall is so twisted and far-reaching, it's hilarious.

What is more hilarious and is more pathetic is your blind willingness to consider Campy as the "golden standard" regarding bike transmissions when this is not the case anymore since 20 years if not more and when especially their market share is truely abysmal. This especially knowing that a company lost 23 millions of € last year and is cutting its employees staff in half. If the transmission wasn't posing any problems then he wouldn't have disassembed the bike and put the components back in their respective boxes. Absolute lack of vision , innovation, profitability ,living constantly in the glory of the past as well as a mismanagement of the company due to sheer arrogance is what lead Campy to its demise and to be near to the bankruptcy. It is not with the sales of some rare and very fancy , very expensive and limited edition bikes that Campy will survive. Campy isn't the OEM choice among the important and major bike brands anymore and they have missed the MTB market in the 1990's whereas Shimano dominated it. How many pro teams have used Campy in 2025? Just 1, others were mostly racing on Dura Ace and on Red, that should tell you also that Campy isn't credible anymore even among roadbike pro racing teams.

Okay, now you're just making stuff up again.
I never stated or made any argument that Campy was the "golden standard."
Campy did not lose 23M last year, they lost 23M over 3 years.
It was never stated that the parts were put back in their boxes. I suspect the photo was posted as evidence that the poster was, in fact, a former Campy user.
There is no indication that Campy is near bankruptcy. All we know is that they have cut their workforce to address future cash issues.
I think Campy knows more about what they need to do to survive than some random person on the internet.
Sponsoring one team does not mean they are no longer credible -- it just means they aren't sponsoring teams. There are many, many credible companies that do not sponsor world tour teams.

Kinda feel like this thread belongs in this one: https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1317060-st-rs685-broken-no-replacement.html#post23656310

:lol: