Seattle Gal

Yes, we've all heard that the pen is mightier than the U-lock... Thanks, Kryptonite, for your lock-exchange service, but what about U-locks manufactured by other companies? I have an old (circa 1996) Rhode Gear Gorilla ATB lock (with a round key), and I'd like to know if I can exchange it. Anyone got any ideas? I'm a lowly writer on a budget, so I'm hoping to avoid the ol' "just get your butt to REI for a replacement lock, lady" comment. Thanks!

operator

Kryptonite is the only one offering exchange programs. Locking with a round key lock is like not using a lock at all.

alanbikehouston

To date, the number of bikes conclusively proven to have been stolen with a BIC pen remains at zero. Over half a million "views" on the various BIC pen threads...not one credible report of any crook out on the street who has successfully used a BIC pen to steal a bike.

Why? Except for the VERY best locks (such as the Kryptonite New York lock), experienced crooks on the street can break most U-locks in mere seconds using a method that works consistently and reliably. Lock picking is too slow and too "hit or miss" for crooks on the street. Lock picking is more suited to a computer geek sitting at the kitchen table with a bike lock and a box of pens.

So, there IS a good reason to buy a new lock. Your "generic" U-lock would not be a challenge for an experienced crook. One particular tool could break your lock in about ten seconds....not much longer than it takes you to open a lock using the key.

Cyclist0383

I'll ask again Alan; if no bikes have been stolen using a Bic and you like the round key better (as you have stated in previous posts) why did you exchange your locks?

alanbikehouston

I used "round key" Kryptonite locks for twenty-five years. During that entire period, I lived and rode in "high crime" inner-city neighborhoods. Never had a bike stolen (stripped down to the frame...yes...stolen...no). So, I got good service from the round key locks.

The "flat key" locks were supposed to be "new and improved". And, they were free. Trade locks that are five, ten, and twenty years old for a "free" new lock...who could say no?

After using them for a few months, I am a tad disappointed with the "flat key" locks. The rotating plates are too easily put out of alignment, making it finicky to get the key in and out. But, with practice, unlocking them becomes routine. Still...bending down over a bike rack, late at night in so-so neighborhoods...who wants a finicky lock?

All of the fuss about round key versus flat key has been a distraction from the REAL weaknesses of most locks. Most bike locks are waay to easy to open using cutting methods or leverage methods.

The best U-lock is the Kryptonite New York lock. It has a "dual bolt" design that forces a crook to cut both arms of the shackle. It uses high grade steel that resists cutting. The quality of the steel makes the lock highly resistant to leverage and prying attacks. Design features that ought to be on every "serious" U-lock.

With the time and money invested in "round keys versus flat keys debate", Kryptonite COULD have extended the "dual deadbolt" design and the cut-resistant shackle design to lighter, less expensive models. There COULD be a two pound "Mini" U-lock with those features. Instead, in 2005, most lower priced Kryptonite locks featured mediocre shackles with only ONE locking foot. Such designs can be defeated by the methods "real world" crooks use...and those methods don't include BIC pens.

Hopefully, with the "round key" debate out of the way, Kryptonite will take care of business with REAL improvements in its bike locks:

- an "Abus" quality padlock for its heavy duty chain locks

- dual locking feet on all of its mid-priced and high-priced U-locks

- cut resistent steel shackles of "New York" quality on all of its mid-priced and high-priced locks

Rumor has it that Kryptonite will soon be shipping a "mini" u-lock of New York lock quality. Now THAT would represent meaningful progress in bike security.

Kryptonite Lock

alan....if you hadn't seen my post earlier this month, please do check out this link...you'll find the brand new New York Fahgettaboudit U-Lock which is the 'mini' you have been waiting for! It is scheduled to hit shelves at the beginning of the year.
Merton...it uses the same shackle thickness and crossbar thickness of the New York M18 that you've bought. It's still heavy, though, weighing in at 4.6 pounds.
It is going to carry the largest anti-theft protection offer in the world - $4,500 in the US

https://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1722

Bekologist

at Seattle prices, gal, a U Lock with a flat key will run you less than 10 lattes, or 30 PBRs.

It's all a matter of priorities. A lock is not a discretionary purchase. Everybody's 'on a budget.'

Raiyn

You still haven't proved that "no bike has been stolen using a BiC pen" Why is it that every time I ask you for source documentation you duck me?

alanbikehouston

You want me to PROVE no bike has ever been stolen using a bike pen? Proving that an imaginary event did not occur is, of course, impossible. How can anyone conclusively prove that THESE persistent rumors are false?

- Condoleeza Rice is a space alien, seeking to make Earth a colony of her native planet

- Adolf Hitler is still alive, living in a small village in Chile

- Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson are the same person


The various BIC pen threads in this forum have been viewed over half a million times. Every major newspaper in the USA gave coverage to the BIC pen nonsense. Most major college and university newspapers (at least the ones that are indexed on Google News) interviewed their campus police chief regarding the BIC pen issue. And, the net effect on bike thefts from all that publicity?


- Not one person has ever provided even ONE police report where a thorough police investigation concluded that a bike had been stolen using a BIC pen. Half a million views. Not one police report.

- Not a single report from any reliable eyewitness that they saw a bike being stolen using a BIC pen. Half a million views. Not one credible eyewitness to a successful BIC pen attack on a bike lock.

- Not a single report that bike thefts in the USA increased during the August 2004 to December 2004 period were the BIC publicity was at a peak. In fact, the campus police officers interviewed by the media all said more or less the same thing: bike thefts were DOWN or level in 2004, compared with prior years.

According to campus police departents, the bikes typically stolen on campus are those using a cable lock, cheap chain locks, or no locks at all. Campus police departments recommend (and some supply) Kryptonite U-locks to their students. Why? Because in REAL life, the bikes with a properly positioned Kryptonite U-lock are the LEAST likely bikes to be targeted by crooks.

My job involves counseling teenagers who are locked up for a variety of reasons. Including stealing bikes. What do the guys who steal bikes tell me? Their preferred target is the bike with NO lock. Folks walk into Starbucks and leave a $2,000 bike on the patio with NO lock. When a bike thief in Houston is "shopping" (looking for a particular model and size of bike) they go over to Rice University or the University of Houston. They can chose from hundreds of bikes locked up with just a cable lock, or with a Wal-Mart U-lock. Ten seconds to open with tools that fit in a backpack. Tools that work fast, every single time.

I've asked experienced "crooks" if they have ever heard of a crook using a "pick" to steal a bike. They say "Why would anybody waste time picking a lock when you can instantly "pop it" with tool X ?"

The BIC nonsense was spread by folks with lack the slightest conception of the difference in difficulty between picking a lock resting on the kitchen table versus picking a lock positioned eighteen inches off the concrete, corrected attached to the rear wheel and bike rack, while looking over a shoulder nervously, watching for the bike's owner.

When the BIC story was at its peak, Houston bike messengers took it up as a game. The messengers would take turns trying to open locks that were correctly attached to bikes and racks. According to my neighbor, who has been a messenger downtown the past two years, the number of times a Kryptonite that was properly attached to a bike and rack was successfully opened with a BIC pen: zero.

All the yapping about BIC pens caused folks to ignore the REAL causes of most bike thefts. The owner is not using a REAL lock (such as a Kryptonite New York 3000, an OnGuard Brute, or an Abus Granit). The owner does not know how to select a safe location for locking a bike. And, he does not know how to correctly attach the rear wheel to a steel pole set in concrete.

Kryptonite invested decades into building a reputation for being the premier bike security company in the USA. The BIC rumors created a preception that their locks were defective. Kryptonite knew their locks were highly effective. How else could Kryptonite afford to offer hundreds of dollars in insurance with a $40 lock? . But, in the retail business, perception is always a hundred times more important than reality. So, millions of dollars were invested in an exchange program to deal with perceptions based on rumor and myth.

Net result of all those dollars invested in "flat key" technology? I ride through the college campus in my neighborhood. I see lots of bikes with "flat key" locks. Attached ONLY the front wheel. Which has a quick release. Or, the lock is attached to the frame and to a "No Parking" sign that is embedded about a foot deep into soft sod.

When the owner comes back from class and finds his bike gone, he will say "Darn it...what happened? I thought a "flat key" made stealing a bike impossible?"

The whole BIC myth is nonsense. Don't want your bike stolen? Buy a good lock. Learn how to use CORRECTLY use it.

jur

Nice rant. But rant all you like, absence of BIC pen proof IS NOT THE SAME AS PROOF OF THE OPPOSITE.

Now can Kryptonite please respond as to why exactly they recalled locks and offered to replace already sold locks?

Marcello

I lost the key to my lock last spring, while the lock was attached to the frame, my rear wheel and a bike rack in front of a mall. My wife took a bic pen, took its cap off the back, pushed it into the lock, twisted the pen, and got the open in less than 30 seconds. I didn't think that it was possible, but I have seen her do it.

The very next day I went to my LBS and bought a combination lock. No more keys to lose.

alanbikehouston

I do not know of any combination lock that lasts more than ten or twenty seconds against a cheap tool that fits in a small backpack. If you still have your "round key" lock, you would be far better off.

If you want a lock that will last ten minutes against a skilled crook, as opposed to ten seconds, buy the Kryptonite New York 3000 U-lock, or an OnGuard Brute, or an Abus Granit. Do NOT buy the Wal-Mart copies of a Kryptonite, or a U-lock from Master Lock. A crook can open Wal-Mart U-locks with his tools faster than you can open one with a key.

Lock ratings based on real world testing are listed at Soldsecure.com. Locks with a "gold" rating lasted at least five minutes against the methods most often used on the street. Bike lock test results are also published in "Cycling Plus" once or twice each year.

www.soldsecure.com/Leisure.htm

EricDJ

Wow Rhode Gear, thats a name from the past. Looking at their site, I doubt they make locks anymore. I recall having one. I found a Rhode gear tool in one of my tool boxes that opens up and had screw, allen bits, like five of them in it. I think I got it around 1989. Amazing what names disappear from shelves. Looks like they slimmed what they make now.

operator

The copy and paste troll strikes again.

Bekologist

Rhode gear should come back just to make Flickstands!

I've watched a bike crook operate outside a big bike shop in town, a 'rustler' waiting for the rider with the expensive bike and no lock to duck inside 'just for a minute.'

Even after the kryptonite round key media fiasco, that little bike shop in Fremont by the ship canal was selling Onguard flat key Ulocks for 10 bucks. you must have missed it, he doesn't have any left.

Raiyn

Been reading the Weekly World News again eh Alan? If that were true he'd be amongst the oldest humans (though I use that term loosely for that monster) on the planet. Considering the information from his doctor's journal I doubt he would have lasted until 1950 much less 2005. Besides everyone knows that the Nazi's went to Argentina not ChileAs far as I can tell they share a plastic surgeon (c'mon the similarities are too close to be conicidence) and I can't remember the last tiem I saw them in the same place at the same timeShow me a case of a thorough investigation of a bicycle theft. Using a BiC pen wouldn't leave evidence that your run-of-the-mill flatfoot would find. IF THE LOCK WAS LEFT AT THE SCENE IN THE FRST PLACE Considering that bicycle theft is a crime of opportunity commited when people aren't paying attention there are usually few witnesses who realize a crime is being commited in the first place. I'd love to see the source of your data. Of course you'll ignore my request AS USUALAgain: Source?How does this help your case? Campus offices also pass out condoms and students still get pregnant and / or catch STD's. Just because you offer protection doesn't mean it gets used (or used properly for that matter) in the first placeYou're a counselor and you rant like this? Duh. It's called a "crime of opportunity". If you make it THAT easy anyone would steal the thingI hate to say it, but that kind of stupidity deserves to be punishedApples and crankshafts again. I can go downtown and swipe a bike with a barrel style lock with no more than a pen. Especially if it's in an area I'm familiar with. I can think of a half dozen off the top of my head that are ripe for the picking because I'm familiar with the times I've seen them and where they park, and I'm not even purposely casing the bikes in question (or any bike for that matter) Just because it's not the way the "pros" do it doesn't mean someone with sticky fingers and a BiC can't steal a bike.You're severely over estimating how hard it is. With practice anyone can open a barrel style U-lock in under a minuteMy "neighbor" who's a "FBI agent" told me Elvis is alive and well and living in Topeka . I don't know your neighbor or if he/ she even exists as this is the first you've mentioned the personI disagree. It actually caused a rush on locks from companies such as OnGuard due to their flat keysThe BiC publicty helped a lot of people to LEARN what good locks are and how to lock them correctly. To steal your mantra "Half a Million Views"The shear fact that a "high security locking device" is able to be opened by a common pen that can be found in any child's backpack isn't exactly a confidence builder.Did they?Have you ever looked at the guarentee? (It's NOT INSURANCE unless you live in NY) You have to complete a list of conditions that most people either can't or don't bother to satisfyFinally a nugget of truthAgain, it's not a myth. The locks ARE vulnerable to BiC pens. You have video proof and the tesimony of several well established members. Just because you choose to bury your head in the sand doesn't change thatJust because people use a particular lock doesn't abate stupidity. I never made any claims toward that end.Once again you insist on comparing apples to crankshafts. Granted if the bike was locked properly it would be much better off than in the condition you describe. However, the barrel keyway still has the functional flaw of being compromised by an object that practically everyone in the world has access toLooks like Cleopatra isn't the only "Queen of Da Nile" (denial)Isn't it amazing that Kryptonite was moving to a flat key in the first place? That's the main reason they were able to start the exchange as quickly as they did. I agree that you should learn to correctly lock a bike. I've never said that a particular lock was a panacea against theft. On the contrary I've said that locks with barrel keyways have an built in vulnerabilty to a common pen All your ranting about crooks, tools, and how poorly people lock their bikes doesn't change the FACT that these locks can be opened with a ten cent pen

BikeLite

So Raiyn, what is your suggested method of bike security?

catatonic

Here's a few pointers.

u-lock: attatch the bike to a SECURE object (cannot be yanked out of the ground, easily cut, or unbolted and lifted). Do this by running the lock around the back rim with the entire lock indide the rear triangle of the frame. This makes it very hard to use leverage attacks, as well as impossible to remove the back wheel.

Cable-locks: ACCESSORIES/COMPONENTS ONLY Secure the front wheel, bottle cages, seats, etc through the frame with this.

Proper locking is a huge part of security.


As for the BIC pen.....there doesn't have to be proof of theft, the design was proven to have a serious flaw, whether it's actually being exploited or not. Any lock that can be non-destructively defeated by a common joe with common objects IS flawed.

budster

I couldn't get the bic pen thing to work when I lost the key to my U lock (mid 90s krypto) last year.

BUT - the guys at my LBS told me how to beat the lock. It was distressingly easy.

I'm currently living in a fairly low crime area with a fairly inexpensive bike, so I'm getting by with a 3/4" flat key krypto cable lock. I'm probably moving back to "the world" soon, and I was planning to use a heavy chain with a master lock. Apart from weight, is this a good solution?

Eggplant Jeff

Most people consider master locks crap. On the other hand, I used 3/8 inch chain and a master lock all though college and never had my bike stolen AGAIN (original one with normal size chain was stolen). Part of it is just the comparison... if your bike is next to one with a cable, and you have a heavy chain, which one's easier to steal...

BTW catatonic I would say a lock that can be easily defeated by a common joe with common objects is flawed, whether the defeat is destructive or not.

Cyclist01012

It is my understanding that it was only the newer Krypto round keys that had problems. I have a older (Late 1980's) Model that le round key is much bigger then a pen barrel so I could not get it to open. Any one else find this to be true?

alanbikehouston

The folks who live in an internet fantasy world continue to have nightmares about BIC pens. Folks who live in the real world can simply look at the test results from "Cycling Plus" and SoldSecure" and find out which locks work out on the streets, and which ones do not.

Folks who are serious about keeping their bikes use serious locks. Right now, the locks PROVEN to work against the methods crooks use (not against "fantasy" methods...against the methods crooks actually used on the streets) are:


U-LOCKS:

- Abust Granit 54

- Kryptonite New York 3000

- OnGuard/Magnum Beast


CHAINLOCKS

- Most chainlocks are LESS safe than the U-locks listed above, as many have mediocre padlocks. AND, the best chains weigh two to four times more than a top U-lock. The best chain locks are:

- the OnGuard/Magnum Beast

- the Abus Granit chain with the Abus Granit padlock

- the Kryptonite New York Chain with the EV Disc Lock


A good test result was obtained by a chain that costs about half as much as the "best" chain locks:

- the OnGuard 12mm models that have "shielded" shackles on the padlock (the version with an unshielded shackle is much less secure) did almost as well as some "high dollar" chain locks.

For now, "Fahgettaboud" the Kryptonont Fahgettaboudit". Its padlock was not as effective as the Kryptonite EV Disk Lock. If a Fahgettaboudit chain is combined with an Abus Granit padlock, it would be far stronger. In fact, a Fahgettaboudit combined with a top Abus padlock would likely rank among the best locks in its weight class.

Raiyn

I don't have nightmares I got my lock replaced.
All the one's you've suggested recently have been flat key models. That should tell you something.
Pull your head out of the dark smelly place you've stuck it. The lock can be compromised by a simple pen. I've done it myself SEVERAL TIMES. Just this weekend I even demonstrated on a customer's lock while it was locked up outside! in addition, I've read accounts here by long standing members who've done it and I've watched COUNTLESS videos demonstrating the weakness. Just because you can't wrap your head around the truth that a round key lock is NOT as secure as a similar flat key modelLet's see now. That's a FLAT KEY LOCK
We all know they use flat keys
Oh Oh Oh Guess what That's a FLAT KEY too!
Flat key
Yup flat
what do you know? Another flat key. How about that?
Every single lock you mentioned has a flat key obviously the BiC pen issue was enough of an issue to provoke the best companies in the game to switch designs. Now it's time for you to move on to the final stage of the denial you've been in for the last year : Acceptance

alanbikehouston

"Cycling Plus" has published three lock test reports over the past year and a half. Their tests involve hammering, chiseling, prying, and cutting. Why doesn't "Cycling Plus" discuss testing locks against picking? Because "Cycling Plus" editors live in the "real" world, not internet fantasyland.

In the real world, crooks dislike jail. So crooks prefer methods that are fast and reliable. Methods that will work on targeted locks in just seconds, with zero risk of failure. Picking a lock is neither fast nor is it reliable. None of the bike mechanics I know ever succeeded in opening a lock with a BIC pen. None of the bike messengers I know has ever succeeded either. Crooks don't like methods that work sometimes, maybe. So, picking locks ranks with "Martians kidnapping bikes" as something to worry about.

Visit the campus police department at an big city campus, such as the University of Houston. Ask the campus police how bikes get stolen. What you will find out is that the owners:

- did not lock the bike at all

- used a cable lock

- used a cheap chain lock

- locked the bike to itself only

- locked only the front wheel to the rack

- used a Wal-Mart U-lock


And,

- bikes that are properly locked with a Kryptonite U-lock are the least likely to be stolen

- and, there has been no increase in bike thefts during the time that the BIC picking technique has been "taught" via the internet, yet the MAJORITY of bikes with a U-lock are still the older round key models.


Kryptonite and OnGuard both need to turn their attention away from silly issues (round key versus flat key) and move on to things that will actually reduce the number of bikes stolen each year:


- making two pound locks that are as "cut-resistant" as their four and five pound models

- making all u-locks dual dead bolt designs, rather than using single bolt designs on lower priced models

- teaching owners how to correctly lock up their bikes

- educating schools, colleges and business owners on the need for high quality, carefully located bike racks


THOSE sorts of changes will reduce the number of bikes stolen. Fooling around with the shape of the key will not.

Kryptonite Lock

alanbikehouston....we are listening...thanks for the input...