A week ago I finished by 3rd year of riding. My emphasis, at least towards the end, was mileage (ended up with 7583 miles - but remember I can ride year round). Still, I had a lot of miles to get in the last 11 weeks to reach my 7500 mile goal so I was riding between 163 miles and 260 miles (avg about 190) each of those weeks, normally riding 4 days. The last few weeks, I was getting much slower - I think the week after week effort was wearing me down.

Anyway, I have backed off considerably the past week. I did 38 miles today, but my other rides were 27, 26, and 15 miles. So, I was pretty well rested and hoped for two things today. First, some pretty decent speed (at least over 15 for the first 11 miles) and a long ride (like 50 miles).

Neither one happened. I was at 14.3 at 11 miles, 12.9 at 15 miles (top of Diamond Head) and after riding another 9 miles, was down to 12.2 mph. Now, I wasn't trying to kill myself, but for awhile when I was doing long rides, I could go 26 miles and, unless the wind was strong, average something over 14 mph (my best was 15.8, but that was a fluke). When I'm riding slow, I don't enjoy riding very much and am not motivated to push the distance.

Oh, after 24 miles, rest, breakfast, then another 14 miles home.

I'm thinking the weeks of distance, as I was wearing out, has "trained" my muscles to not be optimized for speed. After all, towards the end of that year, I was just doing long rides and trying to keep the wheels turning!

I guess it is possible that my body hasn't really recovered enough yet, but I have no prior experience to go on to know - other than 56 yr old will recover slower than a young adult.

Any other insights?

Related to this issue is the matter of doing intervals and I wonder about some options on them. I've been told to do 1 minute intervals, rest 1 minutes, and repeat. Well, after the first one - which may not even make it to 1 minute - I am so drained that it is extremely difficult to do another so quickly.

So, should I try to do at least a minute anyway and probably only be able to do a so-so follow-up, or would it maybe be better to start with 30-40 second interval with a 1 minute gap which I can do several times and work up to the longer interval?

It's called PERIODIZATION. If you're not putting together an effective training program and you're full on all the time, you'll find yourself getting slower and slower.

Please, no intervals. Take some time off the bike to allow your muscles to start recovering from the three years of abuse you've heaped on them and while you're down for the count, pick up 3 books: Sally Edward's "Heart Rate Monitor Book", Ed Burke's "Serious Cycling", and Tudor Bompa's "Periodization: Training and Methodology". Once you've finished with all three books, you can put together a sensible training plan that will allow you to periodize your training so you can maximize your performance and take the breaks as needed.

Koffee

P.S. If you can get to a performance lab and get tested for your VO2 max, max hr, lactate threshold, and find out at what point you're using fat as your primary fuel source, you will be able to put together your program.

Koffee

> It's called PERIODIZATION. If you're not putting together an effective training program and you're full on all the time, you'll find yourself getting slower and slower. <

Well, I'm not doing a training program, but neither am on "full on". I used to push pretty hard almost every ride, but once I reached the point where I could do 15 mph for my first 11 miles while just maintaining a good cruise, I pretty much stopped going all out completely. While I'd like to be even faster, I am pretty happy being able to do that.

> Please, no intervals. <

Now that is an interesting comment. Everyone else has told me I need to do intervals!

Right now, I am sorta being forced to take at least somewhat of a break. I have not ridden two days in a row. I have done shorter rides - though I did do some intervals on some of them, I didn't ride today and probably won't be able to ride again until Monday. Don't know what you define as time off the bike - few days, just reduced riding (like I'm already doing) each week, or weeks of no riding.

It would be nice to get a scientific measurement of what I'm doing. Is that something than is hard to find or is it the kind of thing you might find at any good health club?

At 56, you shouldn't have to take more than 2-3 days to recover from even a kick-yer-a$$ hard ride; and if you go a whole week you're not just resting, you're losing conditioning. I do agree with KoffeeBrown, you should get a book or two on HRM training - and a HRM to go with them. I think you'll find you're training in the 'dead zone', which IIRC is about 65-80% of MHR. (Sorry, I lost my HRM book. ) That seems to be the 'comfort limit' for most people; but you don't improve at that exertion level, you just get tired. I try to include ONE ride per week where I push my HR to about 95% for an hour or so, followed the next day by a 60% ride, which is actually harder to do than the hard ride. After a month of doing that, the results are apparent!

People tend to misuse intervals because they don't understand the concept of intervals. So when someone asks what they should do to get faster, they say do intervals! But you have to look at the whole story. From my perspective, it looks like you need rest and structure to your training. Intervals is not on the plate for you right now, especially if one interval makes you winded. Under other circumstances, I would say your endurance is off, but with all the mileage you've done, endurance is not necessarily the problem. It's time off the bike. It's taking it all-or-nothing for your rides for so long that your body is finally just slowing down and letting you know it's time to take some time off. Serious time off from my thoughts, really. Then when you come back, you start sloooooooow and build. It's like laying down the foundation for your house. If you build the house without the foundation, it may look pretty and nice from the outside, but it's just a matter of time before it falls. If you lay the roots and set down your foundation, your house is strong. You need to make that house stronger, that's all.

Koffee

> At 56, you shouldn't have to take more than 2-3 days to recover from even a kick-yer-a$$ hard ride; and if you go a whole week you're not just resting, you're losing conditioning. <

Oh, I used to the routine of doing a real hard ride and then taking a couple days to recover. That's one reason why I want to go back to 3 days a week instead of 4 or 5 but ALSO be doing rides of more like 40-50 miles - at least once I get things working better again. I can enjoy that IF I can keep up a decent speed.

What I don't know is what to do when I've done 11 or 12 weeks averaging 190 miles - way over my norm. Maybe it makes no real difference in recuperation time, but maybe it does.

> I do agree with KoffeeBrown, you should get a book or two on HRM training - and a HRM to go with them. <

I have a monitor, though I don't use it much unless I specifically want to check something. I have the Lance Armstrong book by Carmichael too, but a lot of the routines are tough for me to do. For example, finding a place where I don't have to stop much - just too many traffic lights around here.

> I think you'll find you're training in the 'dead zone', which IIRC is about 65-80% of MHR. <

I'll have to look it up, but I thought level 4 would be considered pretty aggressive. I can't find my book at the moment either, but thought that was up to 85% of max. My max I've ever reached was 183. If my 85% figure in correct, that would be 155 for the high end.

> I try to include ONE ride per week where I push my HR to about 95% for an hour or so, <

Wow, that would be 174 for me. Don't know if I could push that hard for very long at all. Heck, the 1 minute intervals kill me. While I haven't checked my HR lately, I suspect it isn't much different than that. Can't imagine going that hard for an hour!

Thanks for the info.

> Under other circumstances, I would say your endurance is off, but with all the mileage you've done, endurance is not necessarily the problem. <

This may be crazy, but sometimes I wonder if my brain and muscles convince me to back off when I actually could push them harder (for an interval or whatever). I know such psychological issues do come up in many areas. For example, as a band director, I'll often tell my students to take the biggest breath they can, but I can tell when I watch them they really aren't doing that. They ARE taking a much bigger breath than normal, but not all they can - but they think they are, at least until I work with them for awhile.

> It's taking it all-or-nothing for your rides for so long that your body is finally just slowing down and letting you know it's time to take some time off. <

I assume the "all-or-nothing" must include distance, not just pushing really hard, because I haven't been pushing hard lately

Since I don't have a car, laying off riding completely would be a problem. I have also found in the past that a layoff (from vacation) of several weeks could really cause me to loose speed for some time. But I can certainly take it easy and, as mentioned, my plan it just to ride 3 days a week anyway

The book Cycling Over 50 might help for someone of your age. By Friels, I think. Others may know more.

Rest is an underestimated requirement for any sort of bike riding at moderate intensities upwards, especially for older riders. At least, that's in my estimation. I know that as an almost full-time cycling commuter and long-distance rider, I NEED time off the bike at some stages of the year when I will catch buses or walk (hence the "almost" full-time cycling commuter).

You are right about the mind and physiology sometimes not meeting. Getting the body to do more is adaptation.

To be frank, what are your goals. Is this just personal improvement or are you aiming for competition or just a faster commute? I know that over the past seven years, there have been numerous plateaus where my "average" speed hasn't increased, then suddenly there will a spurt (it's a bit like kids with growth spurts) where you move to a higher level.

There are some posts on another list where a bike courier related his levels of fitness improvement after starting the job, and the intesity THAT took.

By the way, have you had a medical check-up lately, and discussed any of this with your doctor? It might be worthwhile if you can't sustain a minute of intense exercise, even at your level of activity.

No competitions.

Basically I want to be able to average at least 15 mph while just maintaining a good cruising effort (not straining myself). I want to be able to do so for as long as possible - but at least 12 miles (my shortest one way trip normally before I stop for breakfast). I was accomplishing that minimal goal until recently when I seemed to wear out from the weeks of long trips.

Next, I'd like to average 15 for more like 26 miles because doing so would let me ride all the way to the east end of the island. By the time I turn around and get back to where I eat, it would be 40 miles total and even if slower going back, I know I don't mind riding far if I can do that kind of speed comfortably.

Finally, I sure wouldn't mind being able to go even faster. I hear even older people talking about riding long distances going 16-19 mph. Since my absolute, all-out, fastest average speed for 11 miles is 19.19, they are way past my ability. My speed would drop rapidly beyond that - and my second fastest is about 1 mph slower than my record.

My willingness to do distance is, apparently, directly related to my speed. Keep me above 15 mph and I happily keep going. Let the speed drop below 14 and especially below 13 and I feel like it's a drag.

Happiness isn't measured on a cycling computer nor a HRM but maybe that isn't what you are after???

I'm 61 and live in a mountainous area. Three times a week I ride about 40 km and once a week at least 100 km, sometimes much more as on a 400 km brevet.

Normally, during the summer months on a 40 km ride I can average at least 15 mph sometimes over 16 mph. In the winter my averages slow down, since I am riding part of the way in darkness turning a tire-driven bottle type generator.

I agree with Koffee that you've probably "overtrained." Last year, after riding two double centuries and three 400 km brevets along with my other riding in a five-month period, my average speed dropped.

I took a rest, not completely off the bike, but cutting intensity and the longer rides during the worst part of winter. My average speed started rebounding almost immediately. Even riding part of the morning in the dark, I still average over 14 mph and most often over 15 mph. I should be back to over 16 mph when the spring finally arrives here.

Go easy for a few weeks, then start back on building your intensity, though I do wonder about your not being able to complete a 1-minute interval. Rowan may have a point about your checking with a doctor. Since you've been cycling for a long time, a 1-minute interval should present no problem.

Computers and HRMs are merely means to an end. The computer lets me know how I'm doing, but even without one, I would be able to tell if I'm dragging (I know because I've tried riding without using it).

Like I said, let me ride 15 mph for extended distances and I'm a happy camper. Sure, faster would be even better, but not the main goal.

The HRM would be a plus to achieve that primary goal.

> Three times a week I ride about 40 km and once a week at least 100 km, sometimes much more as on a 400 km brevet. <

Let's see, that would translate as 25 miles, 63 miles, and, geez, 252 miles! I can do the first two - did three rides in one week of 63 miles or more one week.

> Normally, during the summer months on a 40 km ride I can average at least 15 mph sometimes over 16 mph. <

Well, I did 15.8 once for 26 miles so that is close, but only once. Did 14.9 once, 14.7 two or three times, so I guess you are better than I am. Also, while I have some hills I consider to be serious, I doubt they match up with your "mountainous" situation.

> I took a rest, not completely off the bike, but cutting intensity and the longer rides during the worst part of winter. My average speed started rebounding almost immediately. <

Okay, that is sorta what my plan was intended to be, once I finished my third year of riding and reached my goals. In the 8 days since the year ended, I've only done about 122 miles (38, 27, 26, 16, and 15 miles - not in that order). When finishing up my 3rd year, my lowest total in a week was 161 and usually considerably more. Plus my schedule will keep me from riding for two more days. So I'm definitely easing up.

> Go easy for a few weeks, then start back on building your intensity, though I do wonder about your not being able to complete a 1-minute interval. <

I just recently had a doctor appointment. Didn't check for anything special, but my health is considered pretty good. I take blood pressure medicine and something for chloresterol, but that's it.

Oh, one other thing, though I don't think it is a big issue. I had a cold for several months where I would be coughing a lot and sniffling, but I was still putting on those miles. Riding before sunrise meant it was cool here in Hawaii and I know the cooler air bothered me quite a bit. In fact, normally I didn't have sniffling problems until I got riding in the cool air.

Now I still have some problems - the cold is not totally gone - but it is not a big deal either. If what I have now has slowed me down, it should have been much worse before, but I was faster then.

I have read your posts and you honestly sound like me at the beginning of the season.

- If you have been training for a long time you will not lose appricable fitness from taking a few days or even a week off.

- You need to listen to your body... body says take time off, take time off

- Many periodization plans have a light week after 3 hard weeks... just what your body needs.

Last week I rode 8 days straight with a 60 miler on the last day. My body sent me a big sign that enough was enough and to take a day off (i.e. falling asleep behind the wheel after a ride). I took a day off and on Sunday I was riding harder then ever.

Rest and you will get faster...

Forgot to mention, concerning my problems doing a 60 second interval. I can do it, but really have to force myself - and then I find it hard to do another, at least of that length.

But I can just keep riding normally after pushing that hard without problem. It isn't like I'm gasping for breath or something.

I think there could be two problems. One may simply be mental - my brain just says to back off, but maybe I really don't need to.

The other would be the simple fact that I have a heck of a lot of miles over a number of months where I almost never really pushed hard. I was content to be doing my first 11 miles at 15 mph or better. So, perhaps my muscles need retraining - they can go a long way, but not push with enough power to get the speed. When I max out on an interval, the muscles really don't like it. Hopefully doing some of this will alter that.

> - Many periodization plans have a light week after 3 hard weeks... just what your body needs. <

I noticed that in the Armstrong book.

> Last week I rode 8 days straight with a 60 miler on the last day. My body sent me a big sign that enough was enough and to take a day off (i.e. falling asleep behind the wheel after a ride). I took a day off and on Sunday I was riding harder then ever. <

Ah, but that sounds much different than me. I mean, 8 straight days, ending with 60 miles and only resting one day would not lead me to riding harder the next day! IOW, I'm already resting a heck of a lot more than that. Even when I was piling on the miles, I only did 4 days max.

Many periodization plans vary in length, intensity, etc. Folks who aren't up to speed with periodization programs (meso vs. micro cycles) lack the knowledge with dissecting the information they read in the cookie-cutter, how to books, which means they don't get much on how to put together a training program for themselves.

An Armstrong book is not what you're looking for- you're not looking to race, are you? And you're not a professional cyclist, right?

I think it's great that a lot of people see that the pros are structuring their training program and they want to do it too. But... structure your program for what your weaknesses and strengths are, not Armstrong's. Structure your program for what your needs are, not Armstrong's. Take a good look at what you want to accomplish. Read up on what the experts say about training and structuring your program, try to get a performance test (after your doctor's clearance) so you can figure out where you are with your fitness level. Then once you've done that, get a diary and start figuring out how much time you have and what your goals are. Once you've done that, it's time to set up your program. Write up what you'll be doing, be sure you're progressing properly with your program. If you fitness program stalls, you'll have to slow it down. If you fitness level increases, you'll know it's time to take it to the next level.

This is pretty general. It takes a bit of time to figure it out if you're doing it on your own. Books help. Talking on different forums help. Ensuring that you're listening to your body and making adjustments with your training schedule will definitely help.

I think you got the right idea...

Koffee

Well, I didn't plan to follow the specific training patterns in the Armstrong book - I just figured it would give me some feel for what exercises do what.

I suppose the first think I need to do is find out how I ride after having 3 days off, with minimal riding the two days before that. If nothing else, I sure should be well rested compared to what I was doing.

Here is an issue that may bear on my present riding.

I rode out today after a 3 day layoff. While I managed 15 mph for the first 12.5 miles, it wasn't all that pleased. The next 5 miles were considerably slower, plus the wind was not a problem today - maybe even at tad helpful.

But coming back home after breakfast, I focused on making sure I could definitely feel the muscles pulling back and up on the pedals. My speed definitely picked up, though I find it hard to do this for long - it doesn't hurt, but the muscles just aren't used to doing this a lot so I tend to stop doing it in fairly short order.

Last summer I did 1000 miles where I focused on faster spinning, but the focus was just an keeping the rpms over 95. There was little resistance involved. I've never been really sure about this spinning stuff, but should I, at least when thinking about it, really feel the muscles pulling back and up?

I've talked to more experienced riders who have raced and they have said they don't feel that - but then, it may be so automatic to them, they just don't notice it anymore.

If you should feel it pulling, then that may account for my problem because all those miles I was really taking it easy just to put on miles, I probably got even worse about maintaining pressure all the way around than normal.

Any comments from experienced riders out there?

TheRFC,
So nice to see you on this forum. Tell you what we go way-back and have similar riding experiences. I've ordered the books recommended on this thread and will probably have to get that HRM. You do the same and we'll compare notes.

Long time no see! I mostly post on that other board, but it is pretty inactive right now - I guess because most people couldn't ride in the winter.

Anyway, I had a real good 3rd year of riding - 7583 miles - but to reach that, I had to do about 190/week for the last 11 weeks. That really wore me out and since then I had trouble getting any speed.

During my last three rides before today, I was doing things that stressed the muscles more, though not riding nearly as far. I climbed over two miles up Tantalus, which was actually a disappointment because I've climbed the whole 5 miles a half dozen times in the past so not making it all the way ticked me off. Still, it forced me to work the muscles more.

The next two rides I did several intervals, plus I think I've improved spinning while still getting more resistance (thus more speed). But because of the easy riding between intervals plus running out of energy near the end, I didn't have any great times to show.

However, today I just tried a nice steady, if somewhat aggressive, cruise and managed the first 11 miles at a 17.2 mph average, which is pretty good for me.

Of course, only more rides will tell me if it was a fluke or not. Next week I'll probably work some more on pushing intervals and see what happens.

Bob

Thought "training" was for racers. But judging by the comments in here, my type of riding is probably not good over the long-haul.

Hopefully it'll be easy to manage a "training" program while commuting. I don't want to be bogged down with more notes and fussing while riding.

Well, I figure training is for reaching a higher level, regardless of whether you race or not. I have no intention of racing, but I like to go faster. I found that when I can go faster, longer, I don't mind riding further. But when I feel like I'm just not making good speed, I'll go to Waikiki and just stop. The magic number seems to be 15 mph. If I can do that to Waikiki 12.5 miles) without feeling like I'm having to work real hard, I'll keep going, maybe going over 40 miles before I get back to Waikiki to eat. But if I have to work hard for that speed or don't work hard and go slower than that, I'll usually go no further until I ride home.

So, I have to do something to make it possible to reach that goal regularly, but at the same time, I'm not racing and so I probably won't train all that hard compared to others.

Training is for those who want to get better, faster, etc at what they are doing, not just for racers. No one but yourself and a coach can tell you what you should be doing specific to you. Basically you need to listen to your body and do what it tells you to do, not the other way around.