FBinNY 

To the Mods and administrators---

If you do come up with a change or changes, you might put a shot* list out here as a poll leaving "prefer to leave it as is" as the last option.


*started as a typo, but I decided I liked it this way.

Machka 

I have another comment about this but I will wait until I can type it rather than picking out characters on my phone.

wolfchild

What needs changing is individuals. Some people who post here regularly need to grow thicker skin and stop being so damn sensitive to disagreements. It seems that every time somebody posts a little bit of sarcasm or some snarky reply or disagrees with the theme of the thread in a "politically incorrect way" they get accused of being a cyber bully, a troll, hater, bigot, racist, anti-cycling, anti-walking, anti-LCF...

Bandera

"Interesting" LCF side discussion in a Bicycle Forum IMHO does not include Dystopian Fantasy and Evil Automotive Conspiracy Theory, or Evil Anything Conspiracy Rants.

Pretty simple really, eh?.

-Bandera

FBinNY 

Yep, I could not have said it better.

Lively or Not

I've never posted in this forum, but I've lurked on occasion. FWIW, one reason I haven't participated is because of how contentious threads become. I have no desire to read arguments about what's "right" and "wrong" about how someone chooses to live their life.

That said, I'm chiming in now because I'd guess there are at least a few other lurkers like me who can't stand the heat in this kitchen and have stayed out.

Mark Stone

For many of us, bicycling, walking and mass transportation are tied together in a car-light or car-free lifestyle. In my situation (car light: approximately 2 car uses per week) I use all three (mostly walking) and to limit this forum to only bicycling means it would not be attractive to me. My experience says that car-free means using a number of alternative forms of transportation. So I vote to leave it as it is.

Maybe I shouldn't have a say, because I post here so infrequently - but FWIW.

FBinNY 

No reason why your viewpoint and opinion should count any less than anybody else's. (except mine)

Machka 

And that's unfortunate.

I sincerely wish we could just chat about aspects of the LCF/LCL lifestyle like coworkers discuss their weekends while making coffee in the morning.

Actually, that's not a bad description of what I would like to see here ... mainly just casual chat ...

"How was your weekend?"
"Great! I took a trailer full of green waste (branches, etc. from pruning) to the tip using my bicycle and trailer."
"How cool is that! Did you encounter any difficulties?"
"Well yes, I discovered that I couldn't corner as well as I'd like, so I'll spend next weekend seeing if I can devise something a bit better. What about you?"
"My family and I went on a weekend cycling tour. We're considering a longer tour come summer, but thought we'd try out the folders to see how they went over a weekend."
"How did you go in the rain?"
"Fortunately, we have pretty good rain gear, but I think we will have to look into better gloves."


"Guess what I discovered ... a site that promotes walking as a method of getting around."
"That is good. I wonder if we've got a program like that where I live."


Yeah, it's light-hearted, and not particularly in-depth. I think there are other forums and discussion boards and blogs, etc. elsewhere for the in-depth, political, right-and-wrong ranting type stuff.

Yeah, participation may wax and wane, but that's normal for any forum.

Machka 

The problem is ... this subforum is "broke".

What needs changing is the atmosphere in here.

It would be so nice to be able to post a topic, and have people just chat about it, or offer good advice and suggestions, and be supportive ... like what happens in just about every other forum within Bikeforums. Sure, some people in the other forums get a bit snippy sometimes, and there may be some differing opinions, but generally speaking someone can post a question and people will come in and simply answer that question.

Here it seems that if you post something seemingly innocuous, all you're doing is waving a red cape around for all the bulls to charge.

My hope, in suggesting that the main focus be on cycling, was an attempt to tone things down ... calm things down ... create an atmosphere where people can come in and ask questions or tell us all about a trip they took or whatever without being trampled.



I do like this bit: "discuss the joys and challenges of a human powered lifestyle" ... maybe if that were there it would indeed emphasise that this forum is about the realities of living car free or car light. I'd be happy if we added that.


Can we approach this forum from the perspective of this ...

-- for whatever reason, we have decided to be car free or car light or we are interested in reducing our car usage ... it doesn't matter why, we'll just take it as it is.

-- and now that we've established that we are car free or car light or are interested in reducing our car usage ... how are we going about doing that? How does that fit into our daily lives? What are some things we've seen that promote being car free or car light ... tools we can use, ways to make it easier?



I'll add one more thing. IF there is a strong desire for a place to talk about the political and environmental aspects of being car free, perhaps there could be a subforum of LCF for that. Like how A&S has or had the VC subforum. Then all of those sorts of threads could go in there, and there would be a warning that users will enter at their own risk. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" ... that sort of thing.

I-Like-To-Bike

Agree with the comments above.

The distinction made above by cooker is important as so much of the contention on this list is brought about by car free movement zealots who make no such distinction. These few zealots bombard the list with P&Rish environmental/taxation/anti-sprawl schemes and proposals needed to change "the automotivist [sic] culture" or reduce automotive bustle [sic] in order to advance their vision of a car free movement. Such P&R rants are NOT about how they live car free nor provide any relevant information as to how anyone else can live car free. Posts/posters of that nature should be handled by the Mods as mentioned above.

FBinNY 

Machka,

I have to wonder if part of your problem is that you're from Canada, a country rumored to be populated by friendly people who apologize for being in your way when you bump into them.

I'm from New York City, which is a different place, and where we tear into people we bump into for not moving out of our way.

Highly simplified and obviously exaggerated slightly, but it defines how these issues ruffle feathers. Yes, I'd like LCF to be a "safer" place (for lack of a better word), and don't like the zealots here any more than you or anyone else.

But the truth is I barely care, and have well developed skills for showing my lack of caring while staying within forum guidelines. I one did reach the point where it boiled over, and emailed a mod for permission to let go and say what I thought, sadly it was denied, but the exercise got me past the boiling point.

IMO it won't matter how we change names or rules. It's a public forum and there will always be sermonizers, trolls, strawmen, and all sorts of unhappy folks here. We can't expect Mods to mother hen every thread, so have to learn to live with it.

Maybe we can used some "go away"answers like:

1- I'm aware of that, but don't care. Or softer, -- Yes, but that's not the topic at hand.
2- Sorry, it's Thursday, and I don't talk to trolls or respond to strawman arguments on Thursdays.

I don't know which would be more frustrating, everyone saying then identical thing, or simply responding in kind, but once the zealous realize that nobody is listening, they'll get bored and move on. Or they may start their own threads, and as long as we don't pick up on them, they and like feeling people can happily speak without challenge from the likes of us.

BTW - this isn't to point fingers in any direction, trolls come in all sizes and from all sides. They're not going away, so we have to wish them away.

Machka 

I agree with all this ...

And for me, "in a neutral way" is the key.

People shouldn't feel like they need to grow a thick skin and brace themselves in a ready position to duck and run in order to come in here and ask a simple question or offer a suggestion.

In other forums, if you ask for tips for riding a century ... you get tips for riding a century.
If you ask about saddles, you get 57 different suggestions for saddles.

That's the sort of atmosphere I'd like to see in here too.

Machka 

Thanks for this!



And BTW - I am seriously requesting that Cross-Training forum, as mentioned a few times in the Walking thread found in my sig line and also found in General.

A lot of cyclists cross-train and it is a particularly popular thing to do during the winter with cyclists taking up cross-country skiing or snowshoeing or joining a gym for 6 months to weight lift or something. It is possible even trainer rides could fall under cross-training ... Zwift challenges, commercial intervals, etc.

Roody

I think the wide range of opinions on this thread reflects the greatest strength of this subforum. People from many divergent backgrounds are interested in LCF and many of them post here. I hesitate to put this out there, but the current nastiness also reflects our society, especially the political events of the day.

One example on this forum is the conflict between environmentalists and anti-environmentalists. We will never agree on this issue, and it's very unlikely that we'll ever persuade anybody to change their minds about it. Opinions about the environment are pretty well baked in at this point. So we are left with two optionS: A) To continue arguing about the environment, but work to make the arguments respectful and collegial; or B) ban discussion of this controversial topic. But a third option--to say that environmentalism is irrelevant to LCF--is absurd and impossible.

The same could be said about other issues such as pro-car vs. anti-car, sprawl vs. zoning control, and others.

These issues are important to LCF people (whether pro or con) and we can either discuss them responsibly or ban discussion all together. Banning discussion will make this a boring and pitiful forum, which I predict will eventually die for lack of interest. OTIOH, I'm not sure people really are capable of civilized discussion in this day and age. It takes self-discipline and mutual respect--qualities that seem to be in short supply lately. We mostly treat each other respectfully on the LCF subforum, but obviously we sometimes fall short.

If you guys think about it, for all your complaining, you really do enjoy our discussions. Obviously the ones complaining the loudest are the ones who spend a good deal of time here een though there are many other things they could be doing with their time. What makes the discussions interesting is not that everybody agrees, but that everybody disagrees.

Discussions where everybody agrees (as sugested by Machka) are just small talk and terribly boring within a short time. The people you disagree with are not your enemies. They are your partners, who make life interesting and enjoyable. I love @Mobile 155 and @wolfchild, even though I almost always disagree with them, because I know they won't let me get away with my usual crap. They challenge me and force me to think more deeply and express myself more clearly. I won't ever change their minds, but it sure is fun to try. And I hope they feel the same about me!

Roody

I honestly believe that people who come here asking for advice do get it. Actually, most of the threads here, by count, have to do with the practical aspects of LCF, including cycling, walking, other human power, and public transportation. However, by post count (not thread count) the more controversial topics predominate. This means that a few people post a lot on a few threads (the so-called "political" ones, and many other threads (the "practical" ones) get a lot less traffic.

I notice that you participate in both types of conversations when it suits you, and I give you credit for that. I just have a hard time understanding why you (and several others) can't just back away from a thread when you're not interested in the content area. If you're bored, it's ridiculous to post over and over about how bored you are. Just back away. Participate in the threads that do interest you and ignore all the others. You don't get a prize for being part of every thread here!

FBinNY 

THIS (in bold) is exactly the problem. Advocates for anything describe anyone who is not adequately supportive as "anti-xxxxxx".
This automatically polarizes people into two non-existent enemy camps, making open and nuanced discussion impossible.

We see this here in LCF, on the helmet thread, and throughout society. The reality is that few are really anti-anything, though they may be more or less for, or for something different. Nothing in life is black and white. There are nuances and shades of grey in everything. Once you decide that anyone not with you 100% is against you, you've declared them to be the enemy, or simply too ignorant to see the light, and the first casualty is mutual respect.

Keep in mind that that as Roody pointed out, the problem isn't limited to the forum, it runs through the American body politic at every level like a metasticized cancer. Think about the presidential election. Think back and try to remember the last time it was about being FOR someone or something, as opposed to against the other guy. The logical result of that negativism is the current two candidates, each of which can only be supported because the other is worse.

If those who believe that LCF and the various "causes" are inextricably linked, they have expect and accept that everyone who isn't with then, isn't against them either. The binding element on LCF is the bicycle. Let's use that to build a bridge to mutual respect and courtesy, rather than standing on opposite shores hurling flaming balls of tar at each other.

LCF is a big tent, with plenty of room for multiple conversations to happen at the same time. It works when people keep their voices down. Once people start shouting, the noise throughout the tent makes everyone else start shouting just to be heard, and nobody is happy.

Machka 

I don't know what posts, threads or forums some of the people here are reading, but the oddest things are being attributed to "Machka".

Machka never suggested we have discussions where everybody agrees.

In fact, Machka gave the example of saddle threads where there are 57 different saddles suggested ... a perfect example of a situation where everyone does not agree.

I don't know who suggested discussions where everybody agrees, but it certainly wasn't Machka.

Machka 

Right ... in many cases, if we aren't FOR something, we might just be indifferent about it ... or we don't see it as the Number 1 Priority. We're not opposed to it ... perhaps it only comes at Number 37 on our list of priorities.

badger1

Yep, and in fact that kind of false attribution or mischaracterization (of views) is a constant on this sub-forum, and one of its main problems. Post #3 in this very thread is a perfect example of this kind of thing.

cooker

I think post 34 pretty much said that - at least that was my interpretation of it. You may disagree

I-Like-To-Bike

My interpretation of post 34 was a desire to make this list another location to post HappyTime KaffeKlatch Facebook type What did you do this Weekend or on Summer Vacation chit chat. Who could find anything to disagree with with such bland chit chat, other than being topics/discussion, including the suggested bicycle related questions, having no special or unique relevance to Living Car Free, eh?

A problem does develop when a group of "insiders" dominates the chatting with inside jokes, jargon and references. The 50+ list had a problem with these "topics" and the devotees of it who didn't appreciate outsiders messing around at their "watercooler."

Seattle Forrest

Interesting. How does it work when you go home by bike? Does the cab arrive first, does it wait for you, do you only do this when somebody else is home to receive the stuff?

FBinNY 

I made friends with one cabby and call his cell. If he's around I'll use him. He loads my stuff and then finds another fare or two, working his way toward my end of town. Then He'll come to my house about an hour or two later. If I'm home, we unload together, if not he piles the stuff out of sight at the end of my driveway.

If that cabby isn't handy, I'll ask whoever if he's willing to take my stuff and wait by my house 10 minutes or so for me to arrive. If not, I break down my bike, and ride like any other fare.

BTW - there's no end of ways to work things out if you talk to people. I once had a cabby refuse because he didn't believe I could ever get home that fast, and didn't want to be stuck. So I offered to bet double or nothing on the fare. He took the stuff, but unfortunately not the bet.

I adapted my ride one way and cab home from how Mexicans do their shopping. There's cab stands near every large store, and larger ones like Sam's Club even have people there to load the goods. People walk, or use the bus to shop, than the cab to go home. This isn't a burden even for relatively poor folks because cabs are pretty cheap.

Seattle Forrest

Thanks FB.

I wonder if Uber drivers would be more amenable to that here. They provide map-based tracking in real time for their customers, and Garmin computers can do the same thing. We can watch each other approach my house...

The nearest Trader Joe's is just outside walking distance. Accidents are common in their parking lot. There's only one route through the lot so it can take ten minutes to get out while the people in front of you park. On the other hand, the bike shop is on the same block. They're happy to hold it for me while I shop next door, but I'm limited to what I can carry in my pack that way.