you guys ARE a bunch of dolts, but misled!

I could care less if you refuse to accept common knowledge about automobile pollution. You expect me to dig up facts about facts?? WHY??? I'm not here to prove anything, I'm here to voice my OPINION.

You want to argue about how cars MIGHT NOT BE SO DIRTY it like care are Ponce DeLeon's chariot or run on cold fusion....or that its okay to compromise your beliefs for money.

so i mispelled minutae, so what? You are blindsided by use of words like iconography, attercopp. are you busy using a dictionary to dissect my posts? Do you need some comprehension assistance? Seems that way, because you can't read the facts about car pollution.

you guys that want to defend you sucking tailpipe for work, go ahead, oil boy.

Why do vegans work in abbatoirs, anyway?

My first couple of posts to this thread pretty much said my piece, and then the skeptics from the peanut gallery wanted to argue specifics about the sanctity of automobiles.

You guys must be getting dizzy from all the Carbon monoxide you've been huffing.

(Note: i haven't read on to the following posts since this one.)

I think Kris should NOT feel guilty at all. sure, maybe he can think about and decide he really wants to switch.
BUT, my guess would be that the reality is that one can make a much better living as a car mechanic than as a bike mechanic - this is a "problem" of our soceity and the car-centric culture, but it is not Kris' doing. People are going to drive and pollute and whatnot regardless of whether Kris earns his living by repairing cars (and yes, i know that if ALL mechanics revolted then it would not be so, but we all know that is not going to happen)
As long as Kris feels comfortable doing his job then so be it.
and Bekologist, i would agreed with many of your points in the thread, but i don't see it quite right to dictate that someone should feel guilty for his profession (unless it has to do with dishonesty or illegal activities or such)

as an aside: 2 years ago as i was looking for a new job as my old one was just not so exciting, i found a REALLY interesting opportunity - a well-paid position for a successfull company putting a lot of money into research in an area i found technically VERY interesting... but it was an auto company (BMW). at first i thought there was no way i could work for an auto company. then i thought about it a few days and decided that i should apply --- there wasn't anythign "evil" that i would have been doing at the job and if i didn't do it someone else would and maybe i could some how do something positive. (in the end it didn't matter as i applied and it went nowhere). in private sphere i have since met 3 people working for BMW (HQ is located in Munich) who are car-free - it's a job and in their private lives they prefer to ride bikes and the train.

Oh please....do you really think fixing a bicycle is anywhere close to being able to work on any part of a modern day automobile? That's ridiculous.

Apparently it's not so common if you can't even back it up. Prepare to be challenged if you grab facts out of thin air.

I'm not about debating if cars are culpable in pollution, FxJohn...that's a nonargument.

Many people? Maybe a little closer to ALL people, except perhaps the few who live isolated there, go NOWHERE, and survive on the money and products brought to them by people who do drive.

BTW, How does Bekologist get to Mackinac Island, especially trips from greater pugetopolis?

I'm not arguing that we live in a car culture either, that's a nondebate as well.



Well, I haven't been since I moved away because I have believed in regionalism since I was a lad. However, back then I'd hitchiked to the ferry terminals, driven a vehicle for hire to the sailboat races, sailed a boat there, got a ride across the straights from some drunk we met in a bar in St Ignace one night after the ferries stopped running, and would certainly consider a trip in a sea kayak a doable venture. I've also been on work retreats and to see friends during the winter. I'd never ridden bikes to the ferry terminal, because I would always bike tour towards Copper Country and into the Huron mountains as well...

The last time I drove for a trip here in my region was July 4th weekend. We went to ski a volcano, so I brought the car to the trailhead. I'm working on being able to haul my skis to the north cascades on my bicycle for next spring season's skiing. I used my car about 4 times since I suffered a broken hip in August. I felt extremely guilty doing so. Back on my utility bike now, the station wagon now sits and grows moss.

Oh brother...do you realize how much cost and pollution went into fixing your hip?
Can I venture I guess you do not like the snowmobiling sport up in the UP?
I really like the Big Bay area.

Well, I think four stroke engines are much better then two stroke jobbers, but I'm not going to argue the presence of mechanised transport. When I used to ski tour on the snowmobile trails, hauling sledge, I'd really get a dose of the exhaust from a pack of skidoo riders...

I wouldn't own a snowmobile, true. Are they also vehicles of utility for some people? yes. for drunks tooling around in the woods going 90, not so much.


Big Bay is very nice, I worked at the health camp one summer, and think the special olympics joke was pretty lowbrow.

I loved heading North and West from Big Bay and cutting cross the Hurons.....absolutely beautiful in there...ironic auto magnates were the ones who helped preserve that neck of the woods...

You OWN a car? :eek:

I'm planning a week at Isle Royale next year...hiking and camping, what do you think?

I disclosed that in my first post, yes, oil boy..

Isle Royale is beautiful, I've been several times. I was working up to sea kayaking there from the Copper Country prior to moving away.

Hitchhiking is OK too..LOL

a recent post debated the merits of hitching a ride with Swiss post office vans versus walking, i don't remember the consensus on that one...

I guess my take on this, Bekologist is that you're in the same boat (or maybe on the same freeway) as everyone else - trying to reduce your car use, but still using. So your posts come across as both judgemental and frankly, hypocritical when you call people unethical, or label them as "oil boy", "gas huffers" whatever, for their continuing vehicle use. If you used "us" instead of "you" in all your posts attacking car users, I think we'd all have no argument.

okay, I thought being a gas huffer was a given, and we are all trying to do our part to minimize the effects. I own a car, mentioned it in post #2, and stated my shiznit stinks, I'm not any holier than thou hypocrite. As pervasive the auto autocracy is, it is not an inevitable personal choice, and the less reliance on them the better.

I ride my bike to year round farmer's markets and try to buy with regionalism on the plate, to minimize the transport costs associated with my food by using locally produced goods as much as possible. My dairymaid knows the farmer and probably knows some of the cows. I know the people that grow my chard and potatoes and apples and etc.

I participated in that thread. My take is that mail (and for that matter, necessary supplies) have to be delivered, and even people who think driving personal cars is unacceptable, should be able to hitch a ride on a necessary delivery vehicle without a qualm.

It fits the theme of this thread. Probably time to let it die.

As for priorities, the smoking one's been won here, smoking is banned from all public buildings now. If we could just deal with second-hand smog the same way :rolleyes:

aside from air pollution, the car culture shapes the landscape in detrimental ways...roads, roads, more roads...parking lots, shopping malls. Water quality really suffers, and ground water recharge is reduced by all that impervious surface.

And then there's the quality of life issue. Why should I have to drive somewhere when I would rather walk or ride my bike. Living on a cul-de-sac in a subdivision that is segregated from other activities of life (stores, schools, entertainment) is no fun.

And every place starts to look like every other place. Blah.

True view from the Soo that, Andy. Pivot point for commerce, see lots of steel and wheat.

Everyone is different. I don't want to live next to a noisy store, i like my house in the woods.
It's all about having choices

I hope while in the woods, you lean your desires more towards bikes and skis than motorbikes and snowmobiles, but you are correct, fxjohn, to each his own.

A little bit of snowmobiling...but i may sell it.
No quads or motorbikes.
I am leaning more towards icefishing and cc skiing for winter stuff.

I agree that we all have, and should have, choices open to us. But your choices aren't just for you...they impact on others. If you're a farmer or a rural worker, or are somehow self sufficient, fine; but if you (and I don't mean you personally, but anybody who lives in that situation) drive to the city to work every day and society builds, maintains and snowsplows the road to your door, then your lifestyle may be imposing an economic as well as ecological burden on others. Cities actually have a smaller environmental footprint than many rural areas, and are more cost-effective in tax expenditures on things like roads, policing, public schools, etc.
And that doesn't mean that Big Brother is going to force you to move. It just means that people are responsible for the effect their choices have. You may be forced to accept higher personal costs, and perhaps also higher taxes or fewer services, to maintain your home in the woods as fuel becomes scarcer.