pedex

but not at all inconsistent with the SOP of the past given the US's history with such matters

and Bush isn't too intelligent, quite incompetent actually, as are various people in his administration, and like all presidents in recent history, he too has people pulling his strings behind the scenes, very little if any policy is generated by Bush, his policies almost in total were laid out by others before he even ran for the office LOL

capejohn

Anyone get converted to the others side yet?

This is fun for us apoliticals to watch. Not judging, just saying.

Carry on.

PSYCLONE

One of the hottest chicks I dated was liberal...If that means anything.....Needless to say we didn't TALK much...

Alekhine

I promised myself not to get involved with zealots, but your posts are so full of leaks that it's kind of fun to show you up. This will be the last one no matter what you respond. My logic here is fine. I double-checked.

You pigeonhole from little or no evidence constantly. It's dishonest argumentative technique. Please show me where a "majority of the posters on this forum" think $100,000 a year means anyone is rich. Show me even 10 that have said that and I'll be satisfied, much less a majority. Please show me where most people on this forum think that giving charity "doesn't wash around here" because the OP should be paying more taxes instead. Again, 10 should be sufficient. I don't require a majority because I don't think you can even supply 5, much less 10. Your pigeonholing is BS, 2-value orientation. Left/right. Muslim/non-Muslim. No shades of grey.

You have repeatedly asserted that we are at war with Islam the religion. We are not. By the way, there are nearly 4000 admitted Muslims in the United States military, fighting, and without question there are many more, since nobody is required to state their religion on the forms that determine these numbers. They are on our side, and indeed there was a fatwa made to the effect that they are allowed to fight against other Muslims as long as they feel it is in the cause of righteousness. The 442/100th Nisei you pointed out from WWII numbered 5000 troops, and fought against the Germans (not "fellow" Japanese) with an army much larger than the one we've committed in Iraq, during a 'popular' war to boot. I would say that 4000+ Muslims compares favorably in numbers with them considering this war is anything but popular, yet you made ridiculous assertions comparing the two. Shameless.

Beyond this, why should American Muslims in particular feel honor-bound to fight in this war if they don't agree with the US policies? This isn't WWII, where agreement was near-unanimous that something needed to be done. Further, try to think of them as Americans, not Muslims. This is your biggest problem (pigeonholing). They are just like everyday floor sweeps, doctors, bike store owners, soldiers, sometimes criminals, etcetera, just like every person in this country is. Non-muslims disagree with this war too. The whole world does. If anyone should be ideologically bound to go fight over there, it's able-bodied conservative internet pundits who spew their bile on blogs and forums all day in support of the war, not Muslims.

Your posts are full of holes and poor semantic arguments, and nearly all have an "us versus them" mentality pigeonholing groups (implied or not), which is not conceptualization, its either/or orientation. You need to work on seeing similarities between people rather than trying to divide them, imo.

By this ridiculous logic, the statement, "Conservatives are racists*" is perfectly fine, since some are, and yet you repeatedly get your panties bunched about it. Nice. Semantics are fun!

Your actual quote was, "The left can always be counted on to call Conservatives Nazis."

Again, by this logic, the statement, "The right can always be counted on to call liberals hippy tree-hugging ****** n1gger-loving commies" is AY-OK because some do. It's not. It's garbage. Your arguments are garbage.

*which is poor semantics indeed, by "the left." See? I show no loyalties here. I see people from all sides making poor arguments all the time, but you do it constantly and think you're air-tight. Guess what, you aren't.

Opinion presented as if it were a logical fact. It is not. Poor semantics yet again. Everyone agree that silence equals consent? I don't. I have the right to remain silent, so does everyone. You definitely should.

It does nothing of the sort. Bush doesn't have to make any counterintelligence plan himself, for one. He can let these little "brilliancies" go to lower level functionaries with the same ideologies and aims as he. And yea, deviousness is not the same as intelligence, much less genius. Your whole thing was an extrapolation from nowhere and there's no way you can get out of it. Pedex didn't mention Bush, he mentioned Bremer. Since when is "go sew discontent among the populace through behind-the-scenes deviousness" a sign of genius anyway? It is a sign of being a common opportunist, nothing more. Keep up the paper-thin logic though; this is entertaining.

NotAsFat

So you're saying the Bush Administrations' performance is consistent with previous administrations? The administrations that won the Cold War, sent the Soviet Union to the ash heap of history, and discredited Communism so thoroughly that even the Chinese aren't really Communist any more? That doesn't sound too bad. If you're not careful, you might get banned from Democratic Underground.

pedex

no im saying that previous admins have used terrorist type tactics and covert operations in the past and used others to do their dirty work on occasion, this admin is no different--including inciting violence in Iraq, its pretty simple really, the US supports terrorism when it suits it(somtimes even when it doesnt suit it), its hypocritical and quite fickle, the Bush admin is as bad as they come in this dept

as far as performance, meh, the Bush admin in many areas is quite inept, incompetent, and corrupt, worse than most others, but better than a couple, thats not saying much

if your looking for some sort of pass for Bush, forget it, that dog wont hunt, he will undoubtedly be in the top three worst presidents the US has ever had

and last I checked, Russia although not the empire it once was, is now controlled by an oligarchy of thugs that happens to be the world's largest exporter of hydrocarbons, so dont dismiss them as dead just yet

and what's really sad, as the US empire unravels, its gonna set new records when it comes to failed states, oughta be great reading in the history books, Im sure Bush will have his own chapter

acroy

it is fun, even if no one gets swayed to the other side, it serves to sharpen the mind and hear other viewoints.....

ModoVincere

I'm amazed at how so many want to see this stuff as black and white, good vs. evil, right vs. wrong. I can't help but wonder if much of the disagreement is due to fundamental lack of knowledge on the issues from both sides of the fence.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some very intelligent posts here, but there's been a lot of crap thrown around as well.

cooker

In internet debates one never writes to convert one's opponent. However there are lurkers who (one hopes) may be persuaded to see the light by a well-reasoned post.

I-Like-To-Bike

So would cleaning one's ears with an ice pick and hammer, and almost as much fun; but I don't recommend it.

acroy

some folks have rocks in the head and that might damage the pick.....

NotAsFat

Would have replied sooner, but I was out of town, with no connection.
My reply to Acroy, calling him one of "the rich" was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, hence the simley. I forgot that when it comes to matters of class, some liberals have no sense of humor. My bad.

As to my "2-value orientation", guilty as charged. I only wish I could express my contempt for pacifists and other enemies of civilization as well as Orwell did in Pacifism and the War. It was true then. It is true now.
I have repeatedly asserted that we are at war with Islamic Fascists, and that if the rest of the Muslim world doesn't want to be lumped in with the freaks, they should do more to distance themselves from them. We are not at war with all of Islam yet (and you can thank President Bush's "Islam is a religion of peace" silliness for that), but that could change, if Muslim governments and other leaders do not realize their peril and do more to police their own.

If the sentiments expressed by Sen. Inouye in his autobiography, Go for Broke were representative of his fellow Nisei, the 442nd would have been happy to fight against the Japanese. They weren't allowed to fight in the Pacific theater. They went where they were sent, fought who they were ordered to, and did so with a gallantry that has rarely been matched and never been excelled. And they did so in spite of the fact that their families were living in concentration camps. Today's Muslim-American leaders don't even want to be searched at airline terminals. If you can't see the difference in attitudes between WWII-era Nisei and today's Muslim-Americans, you're not looking.
Uhh, because they're Americans, and therefore, their loved ones are endangered by Islamic Fascists, too? Maybe because the Islamic Fascists give Islam a bad name? Were I a Muslim, I'd be truly pissed off at those freaks.
It most certainly isn't WWII. Republicans of that era hated FDR just as much as today's Democrats hate President Bush, but they never tried to undercut the war effort, never tried to get FDR or Truman to seek some sort of negotiated settlement with the Japanese or Germans, never breathed a word about cutting off funds for the war. Many of today's Democrats, such as the editorial board of the New York Times, have been utterly vile. The Times has repeatedly leaked details of intelligence programs meant to prevent attacks on America.
And the freaks make it harder for them to be seen as Americans. That, if no other reason, ought to motivate American Muslims to repudiate the freaks and oppose them by every means available.
The whole world does not have the right to forbid America, or any other country, to act against armed enemies bent on killing its citizens. And if I were young enough to be accepted into the military, that is exactly where I'd be.
At least I understand that there is an "us" and a "them" and that "them" is trying to kill "us".
Some conservatives are racists. Of course, when liberals start talking about how minorities need affirmative action programs, they can sound kind of racist, too.
I may be wrong, but I think that most conservatives are less tolerant of the use of those sorts of epithets by conservatives, than liberals are of the term "racist". Conservatives may occasionally joke about "tree-hugging hippies", but it's exactly that, a joke. Liberals aren't joking when they accuse conservatives of being racist, at least they aren't laughing about it, when they do.

When that group of religious nutcases started demonstrating at the funerals of American soldiers, it was conservatives who wanted to prohibit them from doing it. Regarding liberals' tolerance for the term "racist", no mainstream White politician would have dared make the criticisms of hip hop culture that Bill Cosby has, and Cosby has been pilloried by the professional race baiters of the Left.
You have the right to remain silent, but if you do nothing to correct the record, don't complain if people associate you with "your spokesman". That was the point I was trying to make.
As Harry Truman famously said, "The buck stops here". A president is ultimately responsible for the people he puts in positions of power. Bill Clinton understood that, which is why he dismantled our spy networks in the Middle East, and chose to rely on "technical" intelligence sources, instead. Of course, not having spies in the region may have helped Al-Qaeda pull off 9/11, and certainly contributed to the lousy intelligence we had on Saddam's WMD, or his lack thereof. But those failures happened on Bush's watch, so it wasn't Clinton's problem anymore. President Bush is ultimately responsible for the actions of his subordinates, so long as they are acting within their delegated authority.

Sun-Tzu wrote that perfection in war is causing the enemy to surrender without fighting. I don't know what he'd say about avoiding war by getting your enemies to fight each other, but I suspect he'd approve. I don't think that a general war between Shi'ites and Sunnis would be as desirable as a peaceful, prosperous, and democratic Iraq, but as a "Plan B", it has a certain charm.

NotAsFat

He's still got a long way to go to catch Johnson and Carter. And his old man was no prize, either. And don't forget scandal magnets like Grant, Harding, and Clinton.

You might also consider that in the nearly 5 1/2 years since the 9/11 attacks, the Islamofascists haven't laid a glove on the US. I don't think that's because Osama suddenly decided we were okay, after all. I rather suspect that chasing the Al-Qaeda leadership all over Afghanistan (and parts of Pakistan), and forcing them to divert resources to destabilizing Iraq may have had something to do with it. The increased surveillance and improved communication between domestic law enforcement and overseas intelligence agencies probably helped, too.

acroy

good point, one which many ignore

cooker

I have no doubt the war specifically on Al Qaeda has helped diminish that particular threat, and the increased domestic security measures have likely been effective as well, despite the hassles they create. However, I fear both the real and propaganda wars on "Islam in general" may be breeding many more Al-Qaedas.

pedex

oh please, first off the "islamofascists" never attacked the US to begin with, you can start your education on that by reading the Kean report and what went into generating it, also known as the 9/11 commission report---which may I remind everyone it didnt even get started till 455 days AFTER the event, I'd lay odds NotAsfat has never read it much less checked out what's in it to see if any of is even real, nor has he/she even looked into the background behind it-------in order to have fascism you must have a govt, the terrorists did not have a govt, they were freelancing and were behold to nobody, if you believe the Kean report, which is dubious at best, fact is the identities of the terrorists is still largely unknown !!

secondly, given the twisted logic just used by both NotAsFat and others, you could say that all was well and security was never an issue since prior to 9/11/2001 an attack like that had NEVER occurred before


so lets look at the Bush scorecard:
started 2 discretionary wars, denied nothing in their prosecution, losing both
told lies and stories to start both wars, all of which has been debunked since, both were planned about 20 years ago---see the history of Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, and others
domestic agenda has been an abject failure, nothing has been accomplished with the platform he ran on
domestic liabilites for the US govt has gone from about $20 trillion to now more than $50 trillion, in 6 short years
the military is now a broken and used up force, short on men and hardware
biggest attack in US history and the investigation was not only very very late, but a sham from the get go
habeas corpus is gone
domestic spying is now happening
serious conflicts of interest present in the administration with both foreign govts and US corporations
failure to prosecute what terrorists it has managed to catch effectively

some of this is not only impeachable, but treason

get a grip guys, take a close look at what's going on

Old Dirt Hill

Support? Most seem to think I'm a little strange as they can't fathom why anyone would want to do this. I get similar opinions from cow-orkers who see me getting suited up at the end of the day (now that it's winter anyway). "So is it worth it?" a cow-orker asked me last week when the wind chill was sub -20. I just smiled and pulled down my ski goggles as I told him that no one is making me do this...but I wouldn't have it any other way. Again, I am car free mainly because I enjoy it.

All-in-all, I guess you could say people have been supportive, but I don't see many "like-minded" individuals following suit.

I'm originally from the Jackson area although I currently live in Minnesota, so I didn't vote for Granholm or DeVos. I do now consider a candidate's environmental position when deciding how to vote, but I'm not quite sure yet how that's going to play out.

Roody

Interesting. I'm glad you don't get discouraged when others fail to understand what you're doing. It is a worthy effort.

I lived in Jackson for several years...worked at Foote Hospital. It's a very conservative town, so you probably felt more at home there than I did! I also lived in the beautiful area just south of Jackson, and spent most of my childhood vacations near Liberty, MI, only 10 miles or so from Jackson.

NotAsFat

And you call my logic twisted??? Of Course you can have Fascism without a government. You can't have a Fascist government without a government, but then you can't have any kind of government without a government. Fascist governments happen when Fascists take control of a government. Obviously, there must be Fascists before a Fascist government can happen. And in order to have Fascists you must have Fascism. Good grief!

And if Islamic Fascists didn't commit the 9/11 attacks, who did? Little green men from Mars? The shadowman from the grassy knoll? Or maybe you are one of the tinfoil hat crowd that thinks Bush did it so he'd have an excuse to destroy the Constitution?

Everyone thought all was well prior to 9/11, but were obviously mistaken. It's interesting to note that the FBI and CIA had most of the pieces of the 9/11 plot, but they couldn't talk to each other about it. The Patriot Act removed those restrictions, and made it easier for CIA to warn FBI when they have info about a terrorist operation.
They may be "broken and used up", but they can still kick the ass of any insurgent force dumb enough to come out from behind their women and children long enough to fight.
First, you tell me to check out the 9/11 commission report, then you say it was a sham. I wish you'd make up your mind.
Yeah, right.
And about time, too.
And what administration in the past 50 years hasn't had conflicts of interest, etc.?
Prior to 9/11, the primary objective was to proscecute terrorists, after 9/11, the emphasis shifted to premption. Better to be certain you stop a terrorist op, and maybe blow the criminal case, than to let them kill a bunch of people because you didn't. A perfectly appropriate response to the carnage of the 9/11 attacks.
You might want to take your own advice, there.

acroy

I'm not informed enough of the facts to have an opinion on the above. yes i'm admitting ignorance.

But NotAsFast mentioned there's been no big attack since, which is true. This despite repated predictions my the mass media (and a few bad guys on tape) that attacks are coming.

Pedex, assuming your points above are true, they confirm that this country has gotten to the point of being willing to trade liberty for security. I suspect we're firmly on the path of decay and decline which happens to all great empires over time. History is merely repeating itself again, we can hope to slow it but not stop it, destructiveness seems inherent in human nature. I hope the long slow decline is slow enough I am good and gone before it gets really uncomfortable.

NotAsFat

Benjamin Franklin's famous quote regarding liberty and security reads, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." I see nothing essential about the liberty to call known or terrorists from the US without being wiretapped. I see nothing essential about turning enemy combatants, taken on the battlefield, over to the US court system.

Indeed, an "essential" corollary to Franklin's dictum is that "They who will not temporarily give up non-essential liberty for ongoing security, deserve neither liberty or security". Having one's luggage searched before boarding an airplane is an infringement on non-essential liberty that provides a significant increase in security. Wiretapping phone conversations between terrorists and their minions in the US is an infringement on the liberty of murderous thugs which provides a significant increase in security for the rest of us. Denying habeas corpus to enemy combatants captured in battle is an infringement of a liberty that never has existed. POWs are interned "for the duration", in the absence of some sort of prisoner exchange agreement. They have never been given access to the civil/criminal court systems of their captors.

The Constitution of the United States is not, and was never intended to be, a suicide pact. Governments have always crowded the boundaries of "essential liberty" in times of war. It is necessary and proper for them to do so. The consequences of defeat in war are far more terrible than those of temporary infringement of liberty. Should governments continue their infringements after the cessation of hostilities, it's another matter, but governments must be given more latitude during wartime.

And btw, it's NotAsFat (although I'm not as fast, either ).

acroy

sorry for the mispelled - i get fat fast fats all tangled, partly due to my Biblical "seek and you shall find" typing methodology.

to your post;
as long as we're quoting stuff let's get the quotes right, according to the Wiki-world it's
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

I sure don't agree with the corollary staement you make; i think logically the corollary would read "they who do not give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety do deserve both liberty and safety".

but this is semantics. SOunds like you agree with the statement except when you don't want to agree, cause then the ends justify the means? i.e. let's wiretap (invade everyone's privacy) to catch a few bad guys. why not implant a gps chip & transmitter in everyone so Big Bro can track & hear everone all the time, and catch all the bad guys every time. the principle is the same, only the scale of implementation changes.

the above is an extreme example but I do consider it a very dangerous slope to slide on. this is the government we're talking about , it needs (in my opinion) to be kept on a very short leash by it's subjects.

back to the topic, are there any other car free conservative/Repiblicans out there? for the record i'm a car-lite socially conservative Liberatarian.

ride home & beer time

JoeTown244GL

Seeing as this thread is already a threat to my precious bodily fluids I figured I'd weigh in too. I actually believe almost all of what I have written below. Some of it is for effect. So, by this thread, I hereby eliminate any chance of ever being elected to any public office. No party would nominate a person that actually took a position on an issue.

Arms - Every man and woman who is registered to vote, possesses a certificate of franchise, who is over the age of 18, not convicted of a felony, not a drug or alcohol abuser, not mentally ill, and not on the public welfare system shall be a member of the unorganized militia. They shall be required to have in primary residence or physical possession one M16A2 and 5000 (increased since 2002) rounds of 5.56mm ball ammo. Exceptions will be made for the handicapped or infirmed, they will have lighter guns or wheelchair mounted rocket launchers. These weapons will be inspected by the citizen for functionality annually. If a citizen qualifies annually at one of the many public shooting ranges they will be eligible for special tax breaks.

Armed Forces - The armed forces of the United States exist to protect the nation and enforce its collective will. They do not exist as a platform for social experimentation. Thus, no person who is not necessary to the mission shall be accepted.

Bicycles – Good things. We should mandate that all roads have accommodation for cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians. We’d build fewer roads, but we’d gain connectivity and regain a sense of community that I believe we have lost.

Campaign Finance Reform - Only people should be able to give money to candidates. Corporations, Unions and 501’s are not people. If you want to give to the candidate that your union prefers, then fine. People should only be allowed to give to candidates in the district in which the donor is registered to vote. You should be able to give as much as you want to any candidate in your district. I have no right to affect a race outside of my jurisdiction.

Capital Crimes - The following shall be capitol crimes; treason, murder, ****, kidnapping, drug dealing, driving under the influence, driving without insurance, Hit and run, striking a legally operating bicyclist or pedestrian with a vehicle, corruption while in public office.

Central Government - The size of the Central Government shall be reduced to such a size that is only involved in matters such as weights and measures, defending the nation, space exploration and spying on our enemies and allies as we see fit. The rights and responsibilities that are stripped from the central government shall be returned to the people along with their taxes.

Certificate of Franchise - A certificate from the federal government stating that you have performed your civic duty to your fellow citizens during your term of public service. It is required to vote and receive government benefits. It will also be placed on your National ID card.

Concealed Carry - It shall be the right of all franchised citizens to carry a firearm whenever and wherever they feel the need. This includes federal buildings, airplanes and traveling.

Corporate Welfare – None, never again, no more ever. Not even a little.

Drugs, Illegal - As much as it pains us to see someone throw their life down the sewer that is drugs, it is none the less their prerogative. The drug abuse problem in this nation should be combated by executions for drug dealers and faith-based programs for abusers. Marijuana should be decriminalized to allow the resources that are used to fight it to be returned to the taxpayers.

Emmenent Domain - A tool of last resort for public works like roads, bridges, utilities and such. It is not a community redevelopment tool to be used to aid private developers. The supreme court is wrong.

Employers - If you knowingly hire an illegal immigrant we should beat you with a stick.

English - The official language of the United States shall be English. To become a naturalized citizen you shall be comfortable in its use first. We will teach your children English in our schools. No school shall be eligible for a payment voucher if English is not the primary language of instruction.

Felons – Lose their right of franchise and second amendment rights forever.

Foreign Aid - We live a world that has troubles. Sometimes the United States is the only nation that has the resources to help. I believe that Foreign Aid should only be in the form of humanitarian supplies, and aid workers, not weapons or military aid. If you want troops declare war on us and we will send in the troops. You won't like the results.

Foreign Languages shall be taught in our school systems as an elective for English speaking students, as bilingual citizens are needed to fill positions in our intelligence agencies.

Foreign Policy – Live and let live, unless you make our Axis of Evil list. Then we kick your ass as soon as you become a threat. To make the list you need to be promoting terrorism (umm….Syria, can you hear that), working on a nuke for Iran, just be North Korea.

Gas Tax - The taxes collected on gasoline and diesel sales shall be the only funds allowed to be spent on state and federal road and bridge programs. No more subsidizing the road hunger with the “general fund.” 10% of those taxes shall be reserved for bike/ped projects and or maintenance.

Gun Control – The right of a free people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Hanging - We believe that when the state exercises its right to execute a criminal that has been convicted of committing a capitol crime; that that execution should be held on a set of gallows specially constructed for just such purpose; and that these gallows be located on the court house lawn in the county where such crime(s) were committed. We also think is should be mandatory for each child enrolled in the public school system of that county to witness such an execution, if they be above age 12. This will bestow these children with a sense of reality.

Helmets – If you don’t want to wear a helmet please understand if society refuses to pay for your head trauma rehab if your health insurance doesn’t cover all the costs. We need ditch diggers as well as Java programmers.

Home - A citizen has the right to possess just about whatever they want in their own home short of nuclear weapons. The day it leaves the house, explodes, shoots, discharges or the day they point it out the window at the neighbor - and then we should arrest them and execute them after a fair trial. Just because you think they got something they shouldn't, have doesn't give you a right to take it away from them.

*****exuality – Who cares! I believe you were born that way. You have just as much of a chance to “straighten” up as I do in going gay. Cut out the parades and the over the top in-your-face approach to mainstreaming your sexual orientation and I’d be the first one to vote for gay marriage. But, get all “Jazz Hands” on us again and we’ll take it away cause straight people are a majority and there's this thing called the tyrany of the majority that they taught us in college government class.

Immigration - Welcome to America - provided you get a job and pay taxes just like us. If you want to bring the entire village with you make sure they all have a job also. We don't care what color you are or what god you worship. Welcome to America – but learn English.

Illegal Immigrants – Find a local police station. Tell the cop you are an illegal. Show him a one way ticket back to wherever you are from. Give him your full real name. Get fingerprinted. Fly back home the next day. Send the US embassy a letter applying for a visa. Wait for an answer and we’ll get you back in the US legally. Sorry for the delay, but it is only fair to those who followed the rules.

Jury Duty - A citizen must be registered to vote, have a certificate of franchise, have a high school diploma, and have a clean criminal history to be qualified to perform jury duty. Jury service will be reimbursed at each citizen's normal rate of pay. The citizen has already paid for the privilege of sitting on a jury. It should not be an additional hardship on them or their employer. Juries have the right to jury nullification of unjust laws.

Juvenile Justice - All sentences for violent crimes shall involve some form of caneing. A single cane stroke upon the bare back on the courthouse lawn may be traded for each week in jail at the juvenile prisoner's request.

Mosques as places of refuge - If you hide in a mosque and shoot at our troops we will level the mosque from the sky.

National ID Cards – Are a good idea. Make them tough to get and mandatory for employment. Require they be shown when applying for a job, welfare and when voting.

"No Knock" searches are unconstitutional and wrong--period.

Offense – We don’t have a right to go through life un-offended. But we also have the duty to tell the jerks, slime jobs and dirt bags that they do not impress you much.

Prayer in Schools - No official sanctioned prayers are proper. Personal expressions of faith are proper anywhere you feel the need. If you worked your ass off to become the valedictorian and that means you get to give a 10 minute speech then you have earned the right to say what you want. Unless it is seditionist speech then you have a right to say what you want. If you want to talk about Jesus or Satan for 10 minutes then that is your right. And if the Buddhist kid is valedictorian then the rest of us need to sit there politely and listen.

Prison Reform - The conditions of our nation’s prisons shall be no better and no worse than those conditions that the men and women of our nation's armed forces endure while in basic training. Prison shall be one long discipline and mental conditioning exercise. No one shall leave prison with out earning a GED unless otherwise ********. No one who is a clear threat shall be allowed back into society. They shall be exiled from the USA to our territory on Johnson Atoll.

The Motor Voter Law - Shall be repealed. No one shall be able to register to vote unless they travel to the county courthouse. Registering to vote while in line to receive welfare benefits is an affront to working Americans.

Public Service - All citizens shall serve their government from the age of eighteen to twenty in order to earn their franchise. This service may take the form of either service in the armed forces or a WPA or Internal Peace Corp type service. The certificate of franchise shall be awarded on the twentieth birthday. Conscientious objectors and the lazy will be exempt from service. However they shall not be awarded a certificate of franchise nor ever be able to collect welfare or other government benefits.

Randy Weaver/Waco Entrapment - People have a right to be left alone. If a citizen wants to sit in a compound, think traitorous thoughts, collect guns and generally be a bad neighbor then leave them alone. Don't ask them to cut barrels off of shotguns unless you really need short barreled shotguns. The day these people leave their compounds and break the law - then arrest them. Otherwise, leave them alone as they are leaving you alone. This country was founded by isolationistic freaks. We should honor that linage.

Registering to Vote - Proof of Citizenship and a Certificate of Franchise shall be required for voter registration. Your national ID card will do as well.

Religion – Do what you want. Please try to respect the right of others to do the same. But, the moment your religion compels you to convert others to your religion by violence you should expect us to come kill you and burn down your temple or mosque or church or secular humanist vegan coop.

Riding Lawn Mowers – They CAUSE sprawl. A tax upon them will stop the spread of needlessly huge lawns. Thus, I will request that Congress pass legislation placing a $2000 per mower Luxury tax on anything larger than a 24” push mower. Mandatory registration of riding mower will commence with a $100 per year use tax.

Schools - All children have a right to an education provided by a either a Public School, Private School, Parochial School, Home School - it doesn't matter - We the taxpayers, through the government, will give all parents a voucher for their child's share of the State provided funding. It is their choice of how their child gets educated. Corporal punishment is authorized and encouraged. If a child is disrupting the education of others that child shall be removed from the school until such time as the student has proven him or her self ready to learn again. We will not teach all children, only those that want to learn and play by the rules.

Sidewalks First - Then if there is any money left over you can build the road.

Spanking - Spanking by parents to enforce their rules is encouraged. Pamphlets explaining how to perform this lost art will be sent home with all public school children. There is a difference between a spanking and child abuse. Responsible parents shall teach you the difference.

Taxes - All American citizens and residents shall pay 10 percent of their gross earnings to the federal government. 15% in time of war. No more, no less. No deductions. No loopholes. No accountants needed. No State shall be allowed to tax at a rate higher than 1/2 the rate the federal government charges. That means you Kalifornia!

Citizens who qualify with their government-issued M16 shall be eligible to pay at the 9% tax rate instead of the 10% tax rate. 14% in time of war. Corporations shall pay a tax equal to 20% of their total corporate dividend earnings and 10% of their annual payroll. No loopholes. No overseas development credits. The payroll tax shall be abolished.

Unorganized Militia - Every man and woman who is registered to vote, possesses a certificate of franchise, who is over the age of 18, not convicted of a felony, not a drug or alcohol abuser, not mentally ill, and not on the public welfare system shall be a member of the unorganized militia. This is not a voluntary membership. These classes of citizens enjoy the freedoms of our society and are expected to defend it.

Voting – To vote you must have served your country for at least 2 years and have passed a basic core competency test, be current with your taxes and never have been convicted of a felony.

War Mongering - “What is the Spirit of the Bayonet?” “To Kill Drill Sergeant, to Kill!” - Keep the war machine well oiled, well armed, and over there killing terrorists. Put Syria, Iran, and North Korea on a short list and park the necessary nuclear ballistic missile submarines off their coasts 24-7. Then give each country a chance to turn over their terrorists and WMD’s. If they don’t take them down.

Warriors - members of our armed forces shall be taught how to be warriors, not freaking peace keepers. We can train lawyers to keep the peace and I believe they are far more expendable. The men and women of our armed forces shall have one set of conditioning standards and they shall all be taught how to kill the enemy and how to screw up his country.

Welfare - Sometimes good citizens need a hand up. With a dignified program of nationwide community safe houses families will have a safe place to live while rebuilding their lives. The rules will be strict, but the homes will be safe and allow a family to get back on their feet through the promotion of hard work and discipline. Residence shall be limited to three years over a lifetime. A few lazy people starving to death in a nation are a great motivator to those people considering a lazy life and expecting a handout.

NotAsFat

There are numerous variations of the Franklin quote, but the key word is the word essential. Not all liberty is essential, and those who will not give up non-essential liberty in time of crisis, may end up losing all liberty. The worst catastrophe that can befall a nation is to lose a war. If you doubt that, ask a German or Japanese who remembers WWII.

I'm not advocating the curtailment of essential liberty. I am saying that non-essential liberties, the things that are nice to have in tranquil times, but make a society too vulnerable in wartime, can and should be curtailed. It's nice to be able to call anyone, anywhere, anytime, without worrying about government surveillance, but should we extend that right to Osama Bin Laden? It would be nice to be able to show up at an airport, and just walk on to my plane, but in this day and time, I'm not sure I'd want to get on an airliner if the passengers weren't searched. The notion of extending habeas corpus to POWs is a liberty that no one practices, so why should we start doing it? One of America's greatest problems is that it has too many lawyers and too little real work for them.

A government has the moral right and the responsibility to protect it's citizens' rights, including the right not to be attacked by foreigners. The first duty of government is to protect its citizens from foreign invasion, because if it can't protect against that, it can't protect anything.

The wiretapping program that has so many peoples' knickers in a knot was not directed at random citizens. It was directed at calls from suspected terrorist operatives to their associates in the US. I hope to God somebody on our side is listening to them, warrants be damned. We're not talking about criminal investigations here, we're talking about military intelligence. That is a military function, properly under the authority of the commander-in-chief. It's none of the courts' (or Congress') business.

cooker

That's quite the document and there is much to commend it, but there are also quite a few contradictions or inconsistencies.

Decriminalization of marijuana but execution of dealers of other drugs? What if some of those other drugs are also mild, harmless, or therapeutic? Is the state going to tell people what they can ingest?

Why no welfare recipients in the army? What if someone is fired, has trouble finding a job in spite of trying, gets patriotic urges to enlist...are you going to arbitrarily refuse them?

What do you mean "we should mandate"? How will you legislate and enforce that nationally when you have all but eliminated the central government? Hmmm, maybe central government actually has a role beyond "weights and measures" after all.

Much as I don't want to be hit, a couple of the items in there are hardly capital crimes. So if your daughter skids on ice in her car and hits a pedestrian (a terrible, unfortunate accident) she should be executed by public hanging? Would you pull the lever? I bet you won't even let her get her license!

no, no and no. Timothy McVeigh was a franchised citizen, as was the Unabomber. Would you fly with them? If they pulled a gun at 30,000 feet, would you want everyone else to start shooting at them? Hint: depressurization.

ROFL! You need to get out more, or at least read more. I seem to recalll that quite a few other nations sent help teams to rescue Katrina victims.

Or, maybe because it would be good for American businesses to be able to communicate with foreigners.

Ummm, is that gas tax a federal tax? See "weights and measures" above.

"reality" is also known as PTSD.

What about smallpox virus? Child porn?

So they can be gay as long as they don't act gay? They were supposed to teach you that tyranny of the majority is a bad thing. So it's ok for people to be gay as long as they do it on your terms, and you don't have to see it. "Who cares"? Apparently you care!

Or to take away their marriage rights.

A healthy economy usually has some "normal" level of unemployment, like 3-4% as companies go through the business cycle of ups and downs, successes and failures, and people get laid off, and look for work. Although there is a stereotype of chronic welfare abusers, many (probably most) of the people who use welfare do so transiently after being laid off from a job that paid too poorly to allow them to accumulate savings. They get back to work as soon as they can. You won't let them vote?

Congress? see "weights and measures", above.

That'll produce tons of good footsoldiers. Jawohl!

Unorganized militia? What the Hell is that? What does it do? Who is in charge?

I believe that is already in place.