Define "car" "carfree" and "carlight"
08-28-11, 02:29 PM
#51
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Most of the time, I enjoy hanging out in the car-free and car-light forum. Sometimes, when the comments take the tone some have taken in this thread, it's not quite as much fun. Have we turned into a parody of ourselves?
08-28-11, 02:31 PM
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08-28-11, 02:41 PM
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I agree that there are probably some people who don't own cars but who drive a lot for personal reasons. I imagine this would be far less than one percent of the population, although I'm only guessing. I'm not convinced that we need to "worry" about them when we establish a working definition.
Remember, we don't need to write a dictionary type definition of these terms, or a description that could be used for legal purposes. All we need is working definitions that are commonly accepted (by us) for terms that are useful to us when we discuss these matters. And sometimes a working definition is more useful when it isn't overly precise.
Remember, we don't need to write a dictionary type definition of these terms, or a description that could be used for legal purposes. All we need is working definitions that are commonly accepted (by us) for terms that are useful to us when we discuss these matters. And sometimes a working definition is more useful when it isn't overly precise.
Car light could easily be someone that uses a car less than 50 percent for transportation.
It is not overly complicated and includes people that rent, lease, borrow or use a family car. They could be car light.
It seems to me that if you are going from point A to point B and you are in a car rather than walking, using public transportation or riding your bike or even skating you are not car free. You are riding in a car. While someone may only do that now and then or in an emergency there should be no shame in admitting they are car light.
No one would presume to claim to be bus free when they normally use a bus but aren’t the owner or driver. No one using the train for transportation would call themselves train free because they aren’t the owner or engineer. It doesn’t even have to be in the dictionary. We know the difference when someone says, I don’t fly or I don’t use aircraft. We would find the statement to be contradictory if we discovered that once a year the non flyer flew to visit a relative in another state.
Does anyone what to be called car free if they are not?
08-28-11, 04:19 PM
#54
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Roody, I have provided you with links to both the ACS and the NHTS many times, but apparently you are too lazy or ignorant to look at the data... Of course it could simply be that you don't like being proven wrong when real data disagrees with your imaginary world...
ACS - American Community Survey
NHTS - National Household Travel Survey
ACS - American Community Survey
NHTS - National Household Travel Survey
It's amazing how everybody else on the Internet will rpovide actual hyperlinks when they are citing a source, but you just type the name of the source and it's initials.
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08-28-11, 04:22 PM
#55
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Ok but what is so restrictive about car free being a person that does not own and does not use a car?
Car light could easily be someone that uses a car less than 50 percent for transportation.
It is not overly complicated and includes people that rent, lease, borrow or use a family car. They could be car light.
It seems to me that if you are going from point A to point B and you are in a car rather than walking, using public transportation or riding your bike or even skating you are not car free. You are riding in a car. While someone may only do that now and then or in an emergency there should be no shame in admitting they are car light.
No one would presume to claim to be bus free when they normally use a bus but aren’t the owner or driver. No one using the train for transportation would call themselves train free because they aren’t the owner or engineer. It doesn’t even have to be in the dictionary. We know the difference when someone says, I don’t fly or I don’t use aircraft. We would find the statement to be contradictory if we discovered that once a year the non flyer flew to visit a relative in another state.
Does anyone what to be called car free if they are not?
Car light could easily be someone that uses a car less than 50 percent for transportation.
It is not overly complicated and includes people that rent, lease, borrow or use a family car. They could be car light.
It seems to me that if you are going from point A to point B and you are in a car rather than walking, using public transportation or riding your bike or even skating you are not car free. You are riding in a car. While someone may only do that now and then or in an emergency there should be no shame in admitting they are car light.
No one would presume to claim to be bus free when they normally use a bus but aren’t the owner or driver. No one using the train for transportation would call themselves train free because they aren’t the owner or engineer. It doesn’t even have to be in the dictionary. We know the difference when someone says, I don’t fly or I don’t use aircraft. We would find the statement to be contradictory if we discovered that once a year the non flyer flew to visit a relative in another state.
Does anyone what to be called car free if they are not?
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08-28-11, 06:33 PM
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[Roody;13145466]Must be stupid. I'm not lazy, because I have tride to chase after data you alluded to in the past, and never found it. You said I was stupid that time too. In fact, most of the time when somebody challenges your opinion, you end up calling them all kinds of names.
It's amazing how everybody else on the Internet will rpovide actual hyperlinks when they are citing a source, but you just type the name of the source and it's initials.[/QUOTE]
I have given you these links repeatedly before...
https://www.census.gov/acs/www/ for information and documentation
for the actual data
https://www2.census.gov/acs2005_2009_...te_All_Tables/
https://nhts.ornl.gov/ for information and documenation
for the actual data
https://nhts.ornl.gov/download.shtml#2009
and the software I prefer to use to access the data
https://www.r-project.org/
though you can use excel or whatever you actually know how to use...
It's amazing how everybody else on the Internet will rpovide actual hyperlinks when they are citing a source, but you just type the name of the source and it's initials.[/QUOTE]
I have given you these links repeatedly before...
https://www.census.gov/acs/www/ for information and documentation
for the actual data
https://www2.census.gov/acs2005_2009_...te_All_Tables/
https://nhts.ornl.gov/ for information and documenation
for the actual data
https://nhts.ornl.gov/download.shtml#2009
and the software I prefer to use to access the data
https://www.r-project.org/
though you can use excel or whatever you actually know how to use...
08-28-11, 06:37 PM
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Thanks Myrridin for the link. Unfortunately it is quite a quagmire.
On Page 11 https://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downlo...4_Salvo_01.pdf
Using ACS data, I could only find that in the Bronx, 57 percent of people use public transportation (including taxi cabs.) The data did not get more specific than that.
When searching for Boston, the tables only showed "excluding taxi cabs."
https://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...-redoLog=false
And as far as the National Household Travel Survey, they specifically wrote that they excluded taxi data in the Distribution of Workers by Commute Mode.
https://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf p. 52
I questioned the data that many people hop in a taxi, because taxis are expensive! That's sure why I don't use them.
On Page 11 https://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downlo...4_Salvo_01.pdf
Using ACS data, I could only find that in the Bronx, 57 percent of people use public transportation (including taxi cabs.) The data did not get more specific than that.
When searching for Boston, the tables only showed "excluding taxi cabs."
https://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...-redoLog=false
And as far as the National Household Travel Survey, they specifically wrote that they excluded taxi data in the Distribution of Workers by Commute Mode.
https://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf p. 52
I questioned the data that many people hop in a taxi, because taxis are expensive! That's sure why I don't use them.
Never the less, the data indicates that a significant number of people do not own cars, yet use them for their primary mode of transport... They hardly qualify as car free...
08-28-11, 07:10 PM
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Are there are no people posting in this forum that simply do not use a car even if it is a rental? 
It does seem like you agree the definition posted for the forum is too restrictive. Come to an agreement on what car free is or how often someone can use a car and be car free and I won't seem to be so literal. I have just noticed a rather cavalier attitude when using the term. Just as an aside, if you do agree on the idea that car free excludes ownership in the household will some have to change their perceived status?
It does seem like you agree the definition posted for the forum is too restrictive. Come to an agreement on what car free is or how often someone can use a car and be car free and I won't seem to be so literal. I have just noticed a rather cavalier attitude when using the term. Just as an aside, if you do agree on the idea that car free excludes ownership in the household will some have to change their perceived status?
08-28-11, 07:41 PM
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I do agree with your last point: if anyone in your household has a car, you're not car- free. Maybe some people in this forum want to actually car-free, but their circumstances won't quite allow it. Maybe we should all admit that, for most people, car-lite is a more reasonable answer and nothing to apologize for.
08-28-11, 08:15 PM
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Because, it is impossible to be car free under your example. All your food comes in via truck (Unless you live on the Dancing Rabbits Commune, but even they use cars).
08-28-11, 08:31 PM
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08-28-11, 09:55 PM
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Yes. As mentioned earlier, it's easy to establish -either you own a car or you don't- and most people seem to be in agreement with this definition. As you've gone to great pains to point out, it's not "pure", but few things in life ever are. For example, I'm a practicing Catholic. According to the Church hierarchy, Protestants are practically apostates. According to many fundamentalists Christians, Catholics are the next best thing to soldiers of Lucifer. Both groups claim to be followers of Christ, and both groups are largely full of sh*t. Let this be an object lesson to us here.
08-29-11, 09:18 AM
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My sister and brother in law own a car. It is ridiculous to say that if they're driving to visit relatives, and my partner and I are going to visit the same relatives that of course the correct thing to do is for them to drive, and for us to take a bus. Generally, we work it out so that we are car pooling. Doesn't change *my* impact particularly, but it does mean their car is being used more efficiently.
Another couple we're friends with also own a car. Again, it often works out that we car pool, or my partner and I end up car-sitting, or that one person ends up taking the car to fetch people from the airport.
I'm not opposed to cars as an absolute evil. I think they are tools. They're a tool that does not usually fit in my life, so I don't own one. They don't fit into my partner's life either, so he doesn't own one. A tool used appropriately and in a sensible way tho? That's a good thing. I tend to worry a lot more about keeping my airplane travel to a minimum than car travel at this point.
08-29-11, 09:27 AM
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A much simpler, and more accurate definition is that the car-free make most of their trips using a non-car mode such as a walking, cycling, or public transport... So if you only use a car occasionally (whether sharing a ride, renting, or taking a taxi) to can still be car-free. However, if you make one trip a week to get groceries with your bike, but pay a co-worker to ride share to work, then you are not car-free (or even car-light)...
08-29-11, 10:27 AM
#66
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....Personally, it makes sens to define a car as a motor vehicle that is owned, leased or primarilyused by an individual/household/family. From this the definition of carfree follows naturally--the absence of a car as defined. I strongly suggest we continue to use this definition, and end the quibbling now.
The definition of carlight is trickier. For many people on this forum, carlight means that there is a car in the household, but the carlight individual doesn't make use of the car. For others, carlight means they own a car but they rearely use it, and most of their travel is done by non-car means.Personally, I could live with either definition or some combination of the two....
The definition of carlight is trickier. For many people on this forum, carlight means that there is a car in the household, but the carlight individual doesn't make use of the car. For others, carlight means they own a car but they rearely use it, and most of their travel is done by non-car means.Personally, I could live with either definition or some combination of the two....
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08-29-11, 10:33 AM
#67
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[Roody;13145466]Must be stupid. I'm not lazy, because I have tride to chase after data you alluded to in the past, and never found it. You said I was stupid that time too. In fact, most of the time when somebody challenges your opinion, you end up calling them all kinds of names.
It's amazing how everybody else on the Internet will rpovide actual hyperlinks when they are citing a source, but you just type the name of the source and it's initials.
It's amazing how everybody else on the Internet will rpovide actual hyperlinks when they are citing a source, but you just type the name of the source and it's initials.
https://www.census.gov/acs/www/ for information and documentation
for the actual data
https://www2.census.gov/acs2005_2009_...te_All_Tables/
https://nhts.ornl.gov/ for information and documenation
for the actual data
https://nhts.ornl.gov/download.shtml#2009
and the software I prefer to use to access the data
https://www.r-project.org/
though you can use excel or whatever you actually know how to use...[/QUOTE]
Real funny, Bugs Bunny.
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"Think Outside the Cage"
08-29-11, 03:15 PM
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Lessee... mom has a replaced hip, knees that are overdue for replacement, and a badly damaged shoulder. She's got a handicapped car tag, for good reason and she cannot walk far. By far I mean walking from a motel to a restaurant next door is doable, but much more walking is too much. Due to her damaged shoulder, she should not drive much. She is (sadly) in the group of people for whom a totally car free existence is not realistic. When she and I visit each other, chances are good I will end up doing some driving. Because I am car free, I am a lot more able bodied than she is. I have in fact rented cars explicitly to make her life safer and more comfortable. I can't think of many things more unpleasant than spending another vacation with her in the hospital... and that happens a lot more often than I'd like when she tries to push past her physical limits.
My sister and brother in law own a car. It is ridiculous to say that if they're driving to visit relatives, and my partner and I are going to visit the same relatives that of course the correct thing to do is for them to drive, and for us to take a bus. Generally, we work it out so that we are car pooling. Doesn't change *my* impact particularly, but it does mean their car is being used more efficiently.
Another couple we're friends with also own a car. Again, it often works out that we car pool, or my partner and I end up car-sitting, or that one person ends up taking the car to fetch people from the airport.
I'm not opposed to cars as an absolute evil. I think they are tools. They're a tool that does not usually fit in my life, so I don't own one. They don't fit into my partner's life either, so he doesn't own one. A tool used appropriately and in a sensible way tho? That's a good thing. I tend to worry a lot more about keeping my airplane travel to a minimum than car travel at this point.
My sister and brother in law own a car. It is ridiculous to say that if they're driving to visit relatives, and my partner and I are going to visit the same relatives that of course the correct thing to do is for them to drive, and for us to take a bus. Generally, we work it out so that we are car pooling. Doesn't change *my* impact particularly, but it does mean their car is being used more efficiently.
Another couple we're friends with also own a car. Again, it often works out that we car pool, or my partner and I end up car-sitting, or that one person ends up taking the car to fetch people from the airport.
I'm not opposed to cars as an absolute evil. I think they are tools. They're a tool that does not usually fit in my life, so I don't own one. They don't fit into my partner's life either, so he doesn't own one. A tool used appropriately and in a sensible way tho? That's a good thing. I tend to worry a lot more about keeping my airplane travel to a minimum than car travel at this point.
My question about no one in this forum using a car at all is because when I first started coming here there were some that claimed they would not ride with your relatives at all. They would not rent or borrow a car, lease a car or have a car in the household. Then I discovered there were some that called themselves car free but their SO had a car and didn't ride a bike or take public transportation so when they went anywhere with their SO their bottom end was sitting in a car seat. I looked at the introduction to the forum and thought the latter people were car light. But then I learned that people renting a car for weekend trips called themselves car free as well.
It looked like car free was getting watered down to allow more and more people some feel good warmth without having to earn such a title. I have even heard people describe car free as a process, awarded before achieved.
If the people in this forum have decided to open the definition of car free to car renters, borrowers that doesn’t bother me. I don’t know what the people that never use a car are called but that isn’t my problem either.
Your post would push my definition back to a simple, car free doesn’t use a car because I already see more exceptions to the not owning definition. What if we “car” sit? What if we use our parent’s car? What if we car pool? If all of those are car free then owning one and not driving in as often as you seem to is car free as well. It almost sounds like you are putting more miles in a car than I am as car light. It seems as if many feel the effort to be car free should be rewarded or the intent should be rewarded even if the action isn’t truly car free.
I now understand why not owning a car was proposed. It allows people that still use a car to supplement their transportation to somehow wear a different badge than those that still have a car and may use it even less than they do.
Answer this one question: Do you know anyone that simply doesn’t use a car personally? Someone that doesn’t drive ever? Standing next to one of them could you say you are car free and expect them to agree?
Last edited by Robert Foster; 08-29-11 at 03:21 PM.
08-29-11, 04:29 PM
#70
Prefers Cicero
I am interested to see how this develops as well. So I take it by the above definition a teen age driver that drives their parents to school is in effect car free? If two people are living together and one owns a car but the other one drives the car whenever they want only the non owner is car free? Or is it a bit more complicated than that? Just as an example, let us say I had a company supplied car, they paid for my gas, they covered the insurance and they did it for many years. Then the government decided that was a taxable benefit so they took away my car unless I was at work. However I could get mileage for driving to and from work. Was I car free when the company provided the car 24/7? What status changed when I drove my own car?
From what I have gathered while posting here is car free is a state of mind and like a recovering alcoholic it is one day at a time. From that perspective I am car free maybe three or four days a week. I consider it being car light however and not car free because I have access to a car. ( my state of mind)
If two people are living together and one owns a car but the other one drives the car whenever they want only the non owner is car free? Or is it a bit more complicated than that? Just as an example, let us say I had a company supplied car, they paid for my gas, they covered the insurance and they did it for many years. Then the government decided that was a taxable benefit so they took away my car unless I was at work. However I could get mileage for driving to and from work. Was I car free when the company provided the car 24/7? What status changed when I drove my own car? From what I have gathered while posting here is car free is a state of mind and like a recovering alcoholic it is one day at a time. From that perspective I am car free maybe three or four days a week. I consider it being car light however and not car free because I have access to a car. ( my state of mind)
08-29-11, 06:37 PM
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We've had this conversation before. Nobody here but you seems to apply a 12-step, absolute abstinence definition of car-free and expects a car-free person never to set foot in a car. If someone doesn't own a car and rarely rides in one, most of us would accept that person's self-definition of "car-free". In your example, the guy who drives to work every day in a company car is not car-free (rather, he's "free-car"!)
I have come to the conclusion that for many here car free has nothing to do with if a person does or doesn't drive a car. All they have to do is say they are and you accept it. You still have to live with the definition posted as a description to the forum and even in Canada that wouldn't include the one you just posted.
The post I responded to more or less proves it. That person claims car free and drives a car for a parent, for a friend, with a relitive, and to go to the airport. I hate to think what car light might be.
Last edited by Robert Foster; 08-29-11 at 06:47 PM.
08-29-11, 08:28 PM
#72
Prefers Cicero
08-29-11, 11:31 PM
#74
Prefers Cicero
As for the forum header, Roody covered that. It's not the word of God handed down on stone tablets, and nobody had to swear an oath to absolutely adhere to that literal version of "car free" if we wanted to participate in this forum, lest we be struck by lightning. It wasn't drafted by delegates and adopted pursuant to a referendum of forum contributors. It's an arbitrary statement of the purpose of the forum thrown up there unilaterally by a long-departed and rather idiosyncratic mod.
Last edited by cooker; 08-29-11 at 11:35 PM.