katsrevenge

And yet all the data says that if you want riders who aren't 'young, fit and male' you have to do more than just suggest they look for a quiet road. In fact, most aren't going to come to a site like this and ask for tips. They will either see a lack of bike lanes and not ride... or they will see those bike lanes and go for a ride. Full stop.

Machka 

In the US ... or everywhere else in the world?

Ekdog

The bike lane naysayers don't seem to give a damn about children.

Rowan

And yet I've been out there running school holiday programs for children to increase their bike riding skills and knowlege. Go figure! I've even got pictures, but then you know the issues about posting on the web without permission these days. I could block the faces, though, if you wish.

Now, what about you, Ekdog? What sort of involvement have you had in showing children (not your own) how to ride bicycles?

Rowan

What data?

Go to the 50+ forum and see what has been posted over the years about new riders and the advice they have been given.

contango 

If the problem is "how people feel" perhaps education beats redesigning highways? However safe someone might feel riding along a strip of paint at the edge of the road it offers precisely zero protection against a 2-tonne SUV that's drifting because the driver just got a message on Faceache that just couldn't wait.

Which is great until those looking for a "bike highway" get relegated to the same winding infrastructure as those riding for fun because powerful lobby groups start to insist that all cyclists should be required to use the bike paths on the basis that so much taxpayer money went into making them. How do you dispute "millions of dollars went on providing a bike path for you, so get off my road and use the bike path"?

So toodle on quieter roads. Sometimes when I'm out on the bike I want to get somewhere fast, other times I want a gentle ride to get some fresh air and enjoy the views. Sometimes in the car I'm going somewhere, other times (not in London admittedly) I want to just take a gentle drive and enjoy the view. Whichever mode of transport I'm using, if my focus is speed I take the fastest appropriate route. If I want to bimble along at a slow pace I avoid the busy main roads, partly as a courtesy to other road users and partly because the faster roads don't tend to have such good views. If I'm bimbling in the car I look to minimise inconvenience to other road users who might get stuck behind me. I don't see why I'd do anything different if I'm bimbling on the bike.

Put another way, if you could have a bike lane, protected by concrete bollards strong enough that a drifting truck wouldn't break through them, alongside this road: https://goo.gl/maps/hjLgL - would you have any desire to ride along it?

contango 

Really?

When I started riding I started out on quiet roads and avoided busier roads even if they did have bike lanes. I wasn't "young, fit and male" - I was 37 years old, weighed not far shy of 300lb and hadn't taken any meaningful exercise for several years.

Do female cyclists not object to the implication they are somehow lesser beings on the road and need all sorts of programs that apply specifically to them, as if they couldn't cope with the nasty scary roads that men take in their stride without someone patting them on the head and making it all OK?

Ekdog

What a guy!

Still, I wouldn't want a young child to venture out on the kind of streets you favor.

Ekdog

That's your implication. I think it shows they're intelligent.

Machka 

You could probably guess this already ... I object to that implication!! I like to think I'm smarter, stronger, and more adventurous than that.

Rowan

I would send a young child of three or four on to our cycleways, which you have seen, and which ironically, I was instrumental in helping develop in several cases, and to upgrade in others.

You make me out to be some sort of ogre. I'm not, and I can guarantee I have done more to promote all sorts of cycling infrastructure and programs that have been delivered, than most. It's just that with that intimate knowledge, I can see the weaknesses in the attempts to try to make one solution fit all circumstances.

Good for you if what you have in Seville works for you. But it won't work in other places, and other solutions have to be found to ensure that cyclists have a level of amenity that suits a cross-section of users.

Now, tell me, what direct participation have you had in getting infrastructure and programs implemented, Ekdog? You studiously avoid answering my questions.

contango 

Not my implication at all, just following on from the post that said women wanted more of this and more of that. I'm curious at your comment that it shows women are intelligent, given how safe cycling is (based on accidents over distance travelled) it suggests to me that they aren't very good at risk assessment.

To take your comment, do you think men are unintelligent for cycling even when it's clearly safe based on the fact few of us have been killed to death on the roads?

Rowan

This happened to in a project that the state government was implementing on a highway through a town. There was no provision for cyclists on the road, and a narrow footpath. The transport engineers in charge of the project put great store in one submission from a woman cyclist who refused to ride on the road and instead preferred the footpath. In other words, that one submission gave the authority the power to wipe the existence of a legitimate and vulnerable road user from the road.

The plan was changed and wider traffic lanes were introduced to help accommodate riders through the area. The footpath remained fairly narrow, but the woman rider here can at least still use it if she wishes, but with all the risks associated with riding there.

contango 

I can't say your response surprises me

One thing I'd really like to know is how many of the people who come up with a reason or two why they don't cycle would actually cycle if those reasons were addressed, or whether it's just a convenient smokescreen that means little more than "I don't want to cycle and I'll blame Some External Thing that's sufficiently outside my control that nobody will call me on it". The kind of situation where people say they don't feel safe, but if you give them a segregated lane they shift the objection to a lack of bike parking, so you you provide bike parking and they complain there's nowhere to keep their stuff at the far end, so you provide that and they complain they don't want to arrive hot and sweaty, so you provide showers and the objection shifts to being afraid to cycle in the dark, and so on.

My road is a suburban residential street, usually with cars parked solid along both sides with enough room down the middle for one car. It's a two-way road, so if you meet someone coming the other way one driver gets to back up. There's no bike lane, marked or otherwise, and a bike passing a car between the parked cars is tight. We frequently get delivery trucks stopping in the middle of the road to make a delivery. My road is signposted as a cycle route, and over the last few years the number of bikes using the road has risen remarkably. That's based on nothing more than a signpost at the end of the road, pointing along the road, with a picture of a bike on it (the sign has been there for many years). The cycling infrastructure in the surrounding area hasn't changed as far as I can tell for many years. So clearly Something Else is responsible for the increase in cycling.

Rowan

One of the best reasons that was given huge coverage recently in Australia is that the compulsory helmet laws here are sexist, because wearing a helmet gives women helmet hair, and men don't have to contend with that.

That said, I can see a huge increase in the number of women who are commuting by bike in Hobart compared with 10 years ago. And some of them even ride on busy roads, for heaven's sake. How unintelligent could they be**********

Ekdog

Study after study have shown that physically separated lanes make for safer cycling, yet you just brush them aside, as you do the comments from people like me who live in cities where the number of cyclists has increased and the number of serious injuries per X number of cyclists has gone down after these lanes were built. Women and men have to judge for themselves whether the risk is worth it for them and for their children. From what I've seen here and from the studies I've read, large numbers of people will not get out and cycle without good cycling infrastructure.

My wife would not cycle in London because she thinks the risk is too great, but she does ride here in Seville. She's been to Amsterdam, she's seen the infrastructure there, and she tells me she wants to go there and ride. She's intellligent; she's weighed the risks. I'm not going to try to convince her that London is a safe city to ride in.

Ekdog

I'm glad to hear that. What's the cycling modal share in your city? What percentage of cyclists are women?

Machka 

Isn't that an Advocacy and Safety question?

https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/

Ekdog

Here's what happened in my city. No smokescreen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2Sl...xUNjl5VTA/edit

Ekdog

Why isn't it appropriate here, too? It goes right to the heart of what we're discussing and simply asks for Rowan to back up his claims with some facts and figures.

You replied in a similarly hostile matter when I asked you this question before. What's the problem? Have you got something to hide?

Edited to add:

Oh, dear! Just over 1% and falling! I can see why you'd rather not discuss this.

https://chartingtransport.files.wordp...ng?w=450&h=328

Machka 

Ummm .... really? Hostile? My response was very friendly and helpful. I thought you might feel more comfortable in a different forum.

And ... no.

Rowan

Knock yourself out with this link:

Trends in journey to work mode shares in Australian cities to 2011 | Charting Transport

What I find interesting is that the substantial increase in cycling started about the time I was in full swing with my cycling development work and has continued on from then although there has been an inexplicable fall-off in 2011.

And the increase in women cyclists is my perception, which I said in my post. And my perception is pretty darned good, based on my observations, previous posts in this forum, and the linked analysis which validates my perception.

Rowan

Yes, selective analysis on your behalf. Look at the increase since 1996.

But let's look at who's got what to hide, Ekdog. You continue to try to cast doubt on us, but despite all my questions, you have failed to answer any of them. Something to hide? Just who is that, again?

Rowan

I'd urge posters to go look at my link rather than the "special" extraction by Ekdog. It puts a lot more things in context.

contango 

Some of us don't have hair to worry much about at all. If I keep mine (or at least what's left of it) short then helmet hair really isn't a problem. My wife, on the other hand, has hair past her shoulders so it's more of an issue for her. She still wears her helmet even though there's no law that says she must.

I remember being smoked by a couple of young ladies on very nice road bikes, on a road without even a marked bike lane. Now I'm not sure whether they were stupid for riding there or I was stupid for riding too slowly. Or maybe both.