daihard 

Thanks. I didn't even know that the Netherlands has a mandatory bike path law. I've been to the Netherlands and Belgium a couple of times, but the trips took place before I began cycling. I hope to be able to go back there so I can get a first-hand riding experience over there.

JoeyBike

Jamaica just the opposite:


Image Source

I-Like-To-Bike

I have no specific knowledge/evidence that would validate a claim that cyclists are being short changed by insurance company/jury doubt that bicyclists have any right to ride to locations on busy roads without bike lanes/shoulders, and it appears that neither do you.

spare_wheel

In all fairness, in the Netherlands many cyclists pay very little attention to traffic laws.

B. Carfree

American motorists go everywhere. I have encountered them on cycletracks, riverfront bike paths, logging roads (legal here, but the ones I encounter are there to dump rubbish/drug production paraphernalia), designated wilderness areas and private property (the kind that requires permission that they don't have).

That's not a uniquely American problem. Ever seen the videos of bikeways in Paris?

CbadRider

Admin note: When this thread was moved to A&S we received some feedback that advocacy is relevant to LCF so there should be an avenue to discuss it there. So this thread is being moved back to LCF and it will be the place to discuss advocacy as it applies to Living Car Free.

Please do not start new advocacy threads in addition to this one; we don't want a duplicate of the A&S forum started here. New advocacy threads will be merged with this one.

Thanks for your cooperation.

CbadRider
Forum Admin

Ekdog

Sorry 'bout the insult. I wouldn't be all too pleased either if someone called me a v******** c****** in a public forum.

German and Belgian infrastructure may well be superior. I'd like to go to those countries one day and check it out, but I can tell you that the network we have here, while not perfect, is damned good, especially when compared with what we had before, which was next to nothing. I know of quite a few people in Seville who have gotten rid of their cars thanks to our bike lanes, and there are even more who still own cars but no longer use them for trips within the city.

Ekdog

No, why don't you post one?

Aren't most Parisian bike lanes just lines painted on the asphalt? I favor physical separation.

spare_wheel

Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Culture by Design: The Copenhagenize Bicycle Planning Guide

Just saying.

spare_wheel

*sigh*

it's not an insult. for example, cycling in madrid requires vehicular cycling skills. what is insulting is the way some view cycling advocacy through a black and white filter where their preferred infrastructure is always the best regardless of context (or evidence to the contrary).

Ekdog

My, you're quite a serious fellow, aren't you? Didn't you notice that there is a little winking icon next to my statement?

Roody

Thanks for posting that. If I'm reading it right, Copenhagen uses four standard designs and determines which to use based on automobile speed in a given section of roadway.

1. No separation--under 30 kmh
2. Painted bike lane--30-50 kmh
3. Bike lane separated by curb--40-60 kmh
4. Bike lane separated by median or row of parked cars--over 60 kmh
5. Bi-directional off-street cycle path--over 60 kmh

I could debate the speed standards, and possibly add features (wide curb lanes and sharrows) but I agree with the concept that there should be different features in different settings, but with some degree of standardization. After all, that philosophy has worked well for designing motor-specific roads, it should continue to work as we build more inclusive roadways.

spare_wheel

We are absolutely on the same page. I think bike boulevards are also underutilized in europe (except for germany).

AngeloDolce

So if it's personal experience it's speculation and doesn't validate the point; if it's other people's experience it's conjuring from internet bloggers and doesn't mean anything.

End of discussion.

Roody

I asked a long time ago if anybody has knowledge of cyclists being made to ride on bike lanes even when there was no bike lane on that street. Nobody has responded, so I'm thinking that this has never happened. I'm starting to think it's something that "could" happen, but never has happened, and likely never will happen.

tandempower

If transit and sufficient bike lanes could be established and protected from motor-traffic, all that would need to happen would be for the price of fuel to go down to historically low prices for so much traffic to ensue that tons of people would be using transit and cycling to escape the traffic jams. The problem would be that politicians would immediately begin asserting the need to convert bike lanes and paths into motor-vehicle lanes in a futile attempt to appease majoritarian frustration with all the traffic congestion.

cooker

Not specifically this issue, but similar: In the late 1960s or early 1970s in Toronto there was an attempt to force cyclist off some of the major downtown streets. At that time there were two levels of municipal government, City and Metro, and Metro controlled main through streets like Yonge (our central North/South commercial street, and the original 19th century highway out of town heading north). The Metro government proposed banning cyclists on Metro streets. I'll have to dig up the story and figure out how that was shot down.

Certainly it's a favorite meme of Forester, and perhaps part of his experience, that bike facilities posed a threat to cyclists' universal access to streets.

tandempower

One big benefit of separated lanes is that trees can be planted (or better yet, mature trees left whole) in the area between the lanes. This is also true if motor-vehicle lanes are separated from each other with green space. The benefits of shade can easily be ignored by motorists in covered vehicles with air-conditioning but to anyone cycling or walking, the difference made by shade is huge.

More importantly, shade mitigates temperatures and water evaporation generally. I've heard some claims that trees cause more groundwater to evaporate than they protect but I don't believe this. They are basically highly organized and controlled living water systems that convert sunlight into chemical activity, which prevents the same sunlight from heating up the ground and evaporating the water. Multilane motorways should be outlawed and replaced with multiple, single-lanes with tree coverage between each separated lane. This would make lane changing difficult, but special lane-change areas could be designated as such, signs placed indicating how many feet to the next lane-change area, etc.

Rob3

The bike streets in Belgium have a speed limit of 30 km/h and cars are not allowed to pass cyclists by law.
Are you aware that the Dutch don't (or shouldn't) have cycle tracks on 30 km/h roads?
There could be advisory bike lanes on these roads but they don't have any legal value.

I think this is a pretty good presentation about the Dutch bike infrastructure which explains a bit more then just cycle tracks:
What can Seattle learn from Dutch street design? - YouTube

Ekdog

"The idea of 'vehicular cycling', where cyclists share the road with cars and act like cars, is looking sillier with every new study. A few weeks ago a study showed that a shocking 40% of cycling deaths happened when a cyclist was rear ended, usually on arterial roads. Now a new study, Lessons from the Green Lanes, provides clear evidence that separated bike lanes work really well, not only at saving lives, but in attracting more cyclists, making cyclists feel safer, and increasing economic activity".

If you build it, they will come: New study shows that bike lanes increase ridership : TreeHugger

gerv 

That tree hugger article pointed out one essential tidbit: if you want to grow cycling traffic, you need to keep it away from cars.

Personally I can't imagine every bike trip being on separated infrastructure. Most likely it would serve to get cyclists through the worst traffic and act as a bridge to cycling on city streets (although most likely on safer routes).

I suspect the notion of separate infrastructure and VC may not represent polar opposities as we imagine.

Roody

I think it would be nice to have facilities for most of the trip, with street riding at the start and finish. Not too different from walking to and from the bus stops.

Ekdog

I have nothing against following the rules of the road and using safe cycling techniques on streets where there are no separate facilities. Unfortunately, vehicular cycling enthusiasts tend to fight tooth and nail against protected lanes and traffic calming initiatives. They are a naive bunch who are easily manipulated by fans of the car-centric status quo, and their ideas are trotted out every time we car-free living advocates want to invest in infrastructure that will make cycling a safer activity.

Ekdog

That's pretty much what we have here. The only street riding I usually have to do as I move from one part of town to another is for very short distances and on streets where the speed limit is either 20 or 30 kph.