sarals 

I had pyramid pace (ten watts up every five minutes) on the schedule today. It was to be ridden on the TT bike, to keep adaption to the bike. The back has taken a turn for the better in the past few days, so I was anticipating this would go well. The weather this morning was foggy and cold, and I didn't want to deal with the drive to the appropriate section of road to do the workout, so I put the bike on the trainer and had at it. The bike was in my bedroom. I don't tolerate heat well, so I had the windows open. The room was 53 degrees. When I started! Forty minutes in, during the highest effort (only 118 watts), I blew up - I mean, blew up. I felt I was struggling a bit in the effort right before that one, but I gritted through it and expected to do the same on the next one. Nope. Boom, full stop. The seven weeks of reduced output due the back injury has finally caught up to me. I'm now way off on my fitness.

Great. Just great.

However, this is piddling compared to some of your travails. I am well aware of that.

valygrl

Looks like I'm gonna be in Tucson for Xmas-NY. @robabeatle, you around? Anyone else in the neighborhood?

Heathpack 

1. That Pyramid Pace workout is deceptively difficult, no idea why. I see it on my schedule and always think it will be a piece of cake, but its a tough one. Maybe because you get it when you're expected to be a little down on fitness or maybe its just hard. But: been there, even to the extant of being flabbergasted. "This Should. Not. Be. This. Hard." LOL.


2. Loss of fitness is indeed a big deal, often because its bundled with things going awry in the rest of your life (except when its just a planned ebb). So the loss of fitness is "just one more thing". Everyone here understands that, so we should never feel like we should have to apologize for saying that isn't right on the bike. The bike really is important in ways that outsiders don't really understand.

Hermes

@Heathpack Wishing your mom and you the best possible outcome.

I have been working on meditation both for sport and well being. This is a very good book on Mindfulness and Meditation. Full Catastrophe Living https://www.amazon.com/Full-Catastro...strophe+Living

I found this book at times a difficult read but very helpful and worth the effort. It is set in a hospital environment where patients go to a mindfulness clinic for help with difficult problems where conventional medicine has failed. The outcomes are stunning.

Heathpack 

I'll check it out.

You know the interesting thing is that a friend of mine runs double-blinded placebo-controlled studies of various epilepsy treatments for dogs. In EVERY study, she finds a placebo effect. That blows my mind, it says two things:

1. We don't really fully understand how the mind and body work, the mind has influence over our physiology that we don't really grasp much of the time

2. There is a HUGE positive effect when we just believe that someone else cares and is willing to help us. It's worth remembering how much better the world can be if we just go ahead and express kindness, concern, and a willingness to lend someone else a hand. Reaps much more positives than yelling, arguing, tough love or the silent treatment.

Racer Ex 

I don't think dogs are aware that they are being treated, at least if you're putting meds in their food and not doing some externalized treatment like massage or light therapy. They might detect the meds in their food by scent, but I'd be pretty skeptical that they can deduce this is to solve for "X" problem. Having had three dogs who have had seizures on different/multiple occasions, they seem to come out of them with a somewhat "huh?" demeanor for a few minutes, then go back to chasing squirrels.

So "placebo effect" isn't really the right term. More like "unattributed improvement".

Which also brings into question some of the human improvements attributed to the placebo effect in any study. It's impossible to control all the variables in people's lives and environments, or emotional/mental states. You can look at the bell curve an say something produces results in most people; that doesn't mean that it might not produce results in the outliers at another point in time. Or not produce results in those where it worked. Meds stop working sometimes.

Things happen on the conscious, sub conscious, and cellular level, all three overlapping. We know that stress manifests itself physically, so you'd have to figure that being happy and at peace is more likely to produce a better physical state, so things that help with that are worth doing.

On the other hand I knew some mean cruel people who drank heavily who lived into their 90's. Maybe they were happy/unstressed in their own way.

I certainly know that mindfulness, in different manifestations, can change your biofeedback loop. I get through most surgeries and injuries with a bare minimum of low level pain medication, which is characterized by some as a high tolerance for pain. I think it's more a low pain focus, and an awareness on how to shift the focus of pain elsewhere. I clean my own road rash in the shower, I feel very little pain. It hurts a lot more when other people do it. I might be able to work on that, but I'd rather not.

Biology is a great puzzle, with no perfect solution.

Heathpack 

@Racer Ex, we have talked about this quite a bit, she is one of my former colleagues from when I was at the university. She is recognized as being someone who puts together these perfectly-designed studies.

Of course it could be an unintended effect of the placebo treatment but we don't think so because the placebos are different each time- they are not all drug studies. One was a diet study and one was an implanted neuro stimulator device (vagal nerve stimulator).

Our conversations have centered around the concept that it's humans reporting the effect of treatment- the number, duration, intensity of the seizures. We both think the placebo effect has to do with the human side of things, the actual reporting of the seizures and the perception of the severity of the situation. Not a placebo effect from the dogs perspective, who presumably does not understand that he/she is in the study.

But truthfully we don't know, it's weird.

However, there is a guy at the University of Minnesota who is also starting to do these same well-designed epilepsy treatment studies. He has a colony of epileptic dogs with EEG devices permanently implanted in their brains. He is trying to come up with an automated seizure-detection algorithm based on these EEG tracings (it's harder than you think, continuous EEGs produce huge amts of data). This placebo question will be answered by his studies perhaps, because his EEGs will largely take the human observation aspect out of the reported results.

sarals 

Indeed it is! It's darned difficult to do properly on the road, too, because the window of each interval is so small, and then the increase to next interval is equally small. Coming off of smooth pavement onto chip seal can throw me off. I tend to dread seeing PP on the TRS, because it is so hard to do properly, but intellectually, I understand why it's there. Being a driven, goal oriented sort, I want to get it and all things right with no excuses, and that one is frustratingly hard to do. I thought it would be a little easier to do on the trainer, because outside forces and influences don't exist, it's just me against the resistance. With respect to keeping the power on target, it was. With respect to HOLDING that power, it was not!

Of course, the trainer is deceivingly hard, too. Throw in poor ventilation and loss of adaption to the bike and the trainer, and you have a great recipe for an explosion.

The bike, yes, the bike. I've a story to tell about the importance of the bike to me and what it did for me at a critical point in my life. It has had the largest positive influence on my life as anything else I've considered, including family and marriage. Yes.

Interesting meditation came up. I've not done it, nor have I done yoga, but I can certainly see the benefits. Once again, the body goes where the mind takes it. I've been under stress, and I'll admit to some worry over my back injury. I've tried to be positive, as well as follow Coach's sage advice, as well as that of the other folks I have respect for, but still...it gets to me. And that contributes to wearing down fitness, as well as making the apparent loss seem worse than it really is.

So, yes. It is a big deal!

Racer Ex 

Owners get the placebo effect, got it.

I wonder if this couldn't also have an actual physical effect on the dogs...they certainly are very attuned and reactive to their people and their surroundings.

The seizures my dogs have had have been infrequent and isolated; the standard medical answer has been "sometimes this happens and we don't know why". Not all of my dogs have had them. Maybe in those dogs where it's a more regular occurrence having a calmer person in the mix creates a better loop for the dog and reduces some of the external triggers, if there are ones.

I need to work on Ridley's brain. The last few nights she's been up at 3am in a potty/treat/face wrassle loop.

sarals 

And Rollo insists on standing in my bedroom door and staring at me. "Make him stop!"

Heathpack 

I see dogs with pain for a variety or reasons, sometimes its pretty excruciating pain.


Its usually way easier to treat dogs with calm personalities than dogs with dramatic personalities. I have had dogs scream in pain before I've even touched them because they've figured out that I'm a veterinarian and the last veterinarian touched them exactly where it hurts and they know its coming. Oftentimes the kind of dog who behaves like this is one of those breeds that was specifically created to be cute and look appealing, like a bichon frise. I am not kidding when I tell people that toy breeds of dogs were created to have the "job" of being manipulative- they get what they want by controlling our behavior, they are really good at expressing emotion or at least convincing us they are. So some of these little dogs are very smart and very in-tune with what they need to do to affect my behavior. Takes one visit to the referring vet to figure out- "Hey, if I scream, they stop hurting me. Next time I'll just scream in advance." Lol, fine by me- I'm totally ok with that, I just need to know how you feel, however you decide to express yourself. Easier sometimes than trying to figure out what is wrong with that happy-go-lucky Labrador, who no matter what you do, just sits there and wags his tail and tries not to be a bother. Or the Pit Bull, who honestly does not care one iota that something hurts. For those dogs, pain exists but its nothing to be bothered by.


Dogs frequently breeze through very major spinal surgery and a week later feel fine and act like nothing ever happened. We have to go through great lengths to get those dogs to rest for the full 6 weeks post-op. Vs many humans who have that same surgery and need to be urged to do their PT. Dogs are just way less worried about anything, they have much less emotional side of pain and that makes them easier patients in many ways.

Heathpack 

Absolutely. Sorry, I did not go much into my 'placebo effects' ideas because I was mostly making the point that you can even have a placebo-effect-once-removed. Not even you yourself getting the treatment/care, but just witnessing it can make thing better.


Dogs have been bred for thousands of generations to read people perfectly. They are in reality social parasites who make their living off of engendering human goodwill. Dogs are as good at being tuned-in to humans as lions are at stalking gazelles or spiders are at catching flies. Its how they make their living.


Some epileptic dogs are profoundly affected by external circumstances. One of my most memorable cases was a Springer Spaniel who seizure every time he went to the groomer but never any other time. Uh, ok, obvious solution? Don't go to the groomer any more. Its very rare that its that cut and dried but I'm sure there are factors we don't understand in many of these cases.


I think placebo effect may even be a good bit of the positive training effect you get from working with a coach- its a powerful thing perhaps just to have someone who gives a $hit about your data files.

beatlebee 

Nice! I will be here. Let me know if you want some company on a ride. I have off two weeks around x-mas so I will be riding a lot.

valygrl

Yes!! I'll get in touch and we can plan something.

echappist

Hang in there. It does eventually get better
hello, i'm looking for the support group of cyclists humbled by workout of @Racer Ex; is this the place ?

worse than the pyramid workout, per se, are the workouts that tack on things afterwards. Legs are often completely leaden by then.

as for the bolded point, when i was finishing writing my thesis earlier this fall, i was down to 4.5 hrs/week. It was pitifully low, and i hated it. After i turned in the first draft last Monday, I rode for more than 1hr 45min for the first time since my last race in August, and i got a proper shellacking two hours into the ride. I think toward the end, i was just happy to be out there riding as opposed to conforming to the self-imposed limitation on hours. While i never felt too bored going around a 3-mile long loop when i lived near DC, biking along the same roads in the countryside of NJ was beginning to get tedious

sarals 

@echappist, this would be the place!

Dalai

@Heathpack send positive energy and love to you and your mum for the upcoming surgery!

Bandera

As are all mammals hence Iggy & the Stooges' immortal ponderings on our shared external/internal state:

"I Wanna Be Your Dog

And Now I wanna Be Your Dog
Now I wanna Be Your Dog
Now I wanna Be Your Dog
Well C'mon"

C'mon Indeed, and there you have it.

Good Iggy, Sit!

-Bandera

Heathpack 

Thanks, @Dalai. I hope that things are getting a little better for you these days?

Dalai

Physically better. Knee is improving and back on the bike commuting, running, badminton at work twice a week at lunchtime, rock climbing, day ice climbing and even got one more day skiing in after a late dump of spring snow!

Emotionally still in a 24/7 depression with much crying...

Heathpack 

What? Skiing in Australia? I thought you were all crocodiles and cockatoos?

Emotionally... Well, I am sorry to hear that. Incrementally it will get better. Eventually.

revchuck 

+1. It does get better, but at its own pace. It's been almost eight months for me and I'm pretty much back to normal...but I'm still wearing my wedding ring.

Heathpack 

Fun group coffee ride yesterday. One of our local women who has most of the QOMs suddenly is riding with us and occasionally texting me to see if I want to go out on a mtb ride (so far our schedules haven't meshed). She is a bad ass triathlete and loves to decompress on her mtb. My age, way stronger than me, but I've been closing that gap.


It was nice to ride away with her and drop the men on the climbs. Fun to push with someone who is realistically a person who could ride equally with at some point.


And then of course coffee and chatting afterward.


Me: "So, ok, I voted for that Measure M like you told me to. Bottom line, what does it get me?"
Nina: "Three million dollars per year coming to our town starting in 2018 that's earmarked for pedestrian and cycling improvements specifically".


More detail- its gonna mean more bike lanes and bike paths. And maybe an off-road bike "traffic school" for kids.

sarals 

Cool!

And, @Dalai is former track monster.

I want to extend warm wishes and a virtual hug to @Dalai, @revchuck, and @Heathpack.

Strength and healing in numbers.

sarals 

"The Healing Process"

"Don't think about getting an MRI yet, it will show disk degeneration and other problems with the bones, and it can show ligament tears and possibly muscle tears. Let the healing take it's course" she told me. Then she worked me over for about twenty minutes and I felt sore as heck when I got off the table. My chiropractor. She's pragmatic, easy to talk to, and she has amazing hands.

My back gets better, then it reverts. However, each time it gets better, it's a LOT better. Earlier in the week, when I was thinking MRI, it was almost as bad as it had been when I first injured it. Then it got way better, literally overnight. The propensity for stiffness had lessened, and I could move in a "normal" fashion. I was so encouraged! Then came the chiropractor session, followed the next day (yesterday) by a careful strength workout at the gym. Yesterday afternoon saw the stiffness return and some mobility in my back lessened.

But, today is good, so far.

This is getting into week eight.

I have weak iliopsoas muscles, the upper ones, the muscles of that group that attach at L2 and L3 and then anchor at the pelvis. The injured muscle is the the rectus muscle on my left lower back. It was not my left stronger leg that caused the injury, it was my right leg. The injury was cumulative. I wasn't paying attention to the mounting warning signs that the instability in my back was getting worse. I was fatigued, and I wasn't allowing for good recovery or stretching and rolling out properly.

Let that be a lesson to me. And you!

I'll heal. Slowly. Things take longer at our age.

I hope I don't need to see an MD. So far, I don't.