bought a new bike for one of my sons

paid a chunk of mortgage

put money into my IRA

went on vacation

bought tickets/accomodations for my kid to go to Sonoma for the Nationals

but, no, as a self employed person who ends up paying less than $1,000/year in actual taxes, I just sent off my slightly late payment of $2000 for the social security I'll probably never get.... what could possibly happen with a spare 10K per year??

Well instead of paying your federal taxes you could have:

* Built your own armed forces including ground, naval and air personnell/equipment. In addition, you could would added a nuclear deterrent arsenal complete with submsersible and rail deployment platforms in addition to fixed silo launchers.
* Constructed your own transportation system including roadways, railways and airports.
* Purchased vast tracts of land and instituted your own national park system including personnell and requisite roadways.
* Built your own orbital exploration company who is tasked with satellite communications and earth observation including weather.
* Deploy your own border surveillance and protection force.
* Employ an army of scientists tasked with researching the value and safety of your dietary and pharmeceutical requirements.
* Contract with a private detective firm who would carefully scrutinize all your purchasing decisions for common safety and environmental hazards.
* Protect your wealth from the hordes of people around you who do not have such wealth.

Once upon a time, there were people who did all these types of things themselves. They were called lords and kings. They were the law and the only institutions that mattered on their estates. The law had no protection for common people. It only held protection for the nobility. The exception would be if you were considered property of such a person. Than you would have some protection in that your murderer would have to pay compensation to you lord.

Today we divvy up these tasks in an institution called government. To pay for the right to be protected by the law, we make annual payments. They're called taxes and they are the things you are complaining about.

If you wish to descend into a lawless lasseiz-fair hell, I suggest you purchase a ticket to Baghdad where the unregulated market rules supreme. It is truly the capitalist endgame paradise. And I promise you'll have to pay no taxes whatsoever.

Little up-tight there ay?

Or maybe he actually realizes that we live in one of the greatest countries in the world and is grateful for what we have, instead of griping about a few thousand dollars. We are taxed far less than most countries. Just talk to anyone in Canada about their taxes. We actually get one heck of a bargain if you compare us to other civilized nations. Not that our government couldn't be more efficient....

It probably didn't even occur to this guy that in many other nations in this world he wouldn't even be allowed to own a business or property.

But I'd still pick living in Canada over the States any day.

Hey - it's the 15% off the top of my income for FICA (social security) that burns me - not the actual income tax......

Here's an important question: Who owns the fruits of your labor? If a percentage of what you earn is forcibly taken from you-- and by 'forcibly', I mean 'against your will' and with the coercive use of force (after all, if you don't pay your taxes men will come to arrest you, men with guns who will kill you if you resist)-- then you are a slave.

I'll put it another way: Would **** become morally acceptable if Congress passed a law legalizing it?

If you take the position that "No, idiot, **** is not nor would ever be morally acceptable", isn't it just as immoral when Congress legalizes the taking of one person's earnings to give to another? Surely if a private person took money from one person and gave it to another, we'd deem it theft and, as such, immoral. Does the same act become moral when Congress takes people's money to give to farmers, airline companies, Sadaam Hussein, or an impoverished family? No, it's still theft.

instead of thinking of a response,
i rode my bike.

See where making an innocent comment gets you apclassic? Hey Maelstrom, I think it's time to move this to Foo - - it's degenerated into a politcal war.

Lets see her do these things with her money in bahgdad.
bought a new bike for one of my sons, paid a chunk of mortgage, put money into my IRA, went on vacation, bought tickets/accomodations for my kid to go to Sonoma for the Nationals

That's fine, less people on the good trails

Ideally, the money we take from ourselves (we elected the people who do it remember) comes back to us in the form of public service of various forms. **** is a terrible example to use in an analogy.

Whether or not tax money is being properly used is a seperate discussion from whether or not taxes are acceptable to begin with.

I sympathize with apclassic, though. I've got serious doubts how much of my SS money I will ever see, and I know I could be in better financial position in the future managing it myself. It sure was a convenient way to temporarily inflate the federal coffers though. Oh well. It's just money. Can't take it with you.

and just remember, that check was (or should have been) made payable to the "United States Treasury," not "IRS".

here in ontario we have to pay 15% tax, which is alot. but it seems alot less when you factor in the free health care. i mean, having a child in the states that is born prematurely and needs special attention in the hospital can cost as much as a house.

that's only provincial tax and goods and services tax

include income tax etc. and about 50% of your gross income is going to the government.

wow, this thread is a little heated eh?

Your polemic is interesting, but you are clearly out of your depth in terms of historical knowledge. Liberty, fraternity, and equality are different realities than taxation. Monarchs exacted heavy taxes (well up to 50 or 60% of a person's wealth). On average, taxes are less in democratic societies than in feudal societies, especially absolutist societies. In the U.S., many of the things we think of as "public works" (sewage, street construction, etc.) were more or less privately funded well into the 1800's and in some cases still are today. And I think it is clear that surveillance and defense will become increasingly privatized if trends continue. I'm not saying that I disagree with your political position, I'm not coming down either way, but your understanding of history glosses over too much.

Edit: You should know that in America taxation has increased as capitalism has become more developed.

Instead of Paying IRS you could have your butt kicked

Jeez-Louise!! I just posted the quarterly fustration I feel when I hit the EFTPS "send" button!! A little fantasy about better, more enjoyable ways to spend money that I make & the government takes......

But, since some people got upset, a little clarification:
If you work for someone else, you have 7.65% of you paycheck deducted & supposedly sent to the folks at the Social Security Administration, and your employer sends a matching amount; if you are self employed, you get to pay the 15+% all by yourself. In actuallyity, this money DOES go straight to the US Treasure and is NOT reserved for Social Security, which is why the politicians are always decrying the sysytem's solvency. Most people could better manage this money themselves, with a better return - heck - even a 3% savings account would beat the uncertainty of receiving SS in 20 years!
Since this money is being spent as we deliver it, why should I NOT be upset when, as a Student Financial Aid professional, I see people receiving Food Stamps, Medical Cards, HUD pays their rent & utilities, and they have minimal, if any, earned wages - yet they can afford cell phones & lap tops. Add all these benefits together and assign equal value to a WORKING family, and not only would they be struggling to pay bills, but they might not be fully eligible for the basic Federal Pell Grant to further thier education and improve their economic situation.

And, yeah, it's about time to move this thread to FOO.

PS - Pheard - yada yada yada. I have a son in the military, so don't Baghdad me.

Sorry Pheard - I meant that "yada yada" to go to Willt