God i cant stand it!
Oh, you want xtr disc brakes? hmm well you'll have to buy our hubs then, because the rotors only fit on those. Oh yeah, and the shifters, they only work with our deraiuller thats like $150

does this bother ANYONE else.?? I dont actually want XTR discs, but its the principle...

Yes adam, its stupid. Thats why all you freeriders and downhillers should go with the Campaganolo DH/FR group coming out. It would be cool (However its called Diabolus or something)

Yeah it sucks big time!

Campy is venturing into DH/FR ??? Huh, who'd ah thunk it. I know they made MTB parts way back when, but still....

Personally, I prefer SRAM mtb stuff.

You can use the xtr calipers with the XT rotors. THen you can use whatever hubs you want.

B1105, I think the Campy FR/Dh Groupo (Diablos) was an April fools joke.

yeah I know you can get around the system, its just so bothersome as a concept, thats a good idea about the rotors though KevinG.

Ive seen pictures of the Shimano FR (saint) and Campy FR (diablo) so im not so sure its a joke

The Shimano Saint stuff is for real. THe Campag stuff is not, I think.

I think the Magura Martas are light weight discs, get those instead of Shimano XTR.. The XT hydros are nice though..Have you guys ever seen the setup where the are two discs per wheel?

Join the club.

errr...mumblemumble...planned obsolescence...mumble...shimano...mumblemumble...evil....mmmm

Yeah I am really annoyed by the fact that my Volvo pistons don't fit in my Dodge van and my carbs on my yamaha won't work on my Kawasaki. For that matter Xbox discs won't work in my Playstation II. It is not the obligation of Shimano to make their stuff fit every body elses stuff. Suntour, remember them, made no effort to make their stuff fit any body elses. If Shimano made crap their stuff wouldn't be on the market still,now would it? Of course here I am using a ragged Gateway with no dam five. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

Back in the day a guy named Eli Whitney came up with the idea for interchangable parts. There has been an industry standard in all types of industries ever since then. (light bulbs, electrical sockets, even pencil lead have standard shapes and sizes) Bikes have allways been so interchangable, its a shame that suddenly Shimano cant rely on high quality alone to maintain customers, and has to sink to the level of locking their customers into a "contract" of buying more of their parts or putting that nice new XTR crankset they payed $200 for on the shelf in their garage just to keep their old BB.

How long have you worked on bikes? There has been French, Swiss, English and Italian standards for headset and BB. Only English and Italian are left and Italian just barely. Except of course for 1",1 1/8",1 1/4" and now one and a half inch head set sizes.
I have to have nine spoke wrenches in three styles just to true wheels.
I need a special bearing press just to take apart a king hub, a special tool just to adjust it for that matter. Special tools for adjusting Mavic hubs. A special tool just to put a permalink on a campy chain.
I have spent many years working in the mechanics world and most manufacturers don't try to make their product fit any body elses stuff. Tires, light bulbs, and belts, thats about it.
The new XTR crank has an integrated BB, the spindle is part of one crank arm with out board bearings.

(edit) I almost forget the wonderful Schwinn specific tire, that still appears from time to time.

Go Rev! Preach it

what was so incompatible about Suntour? I always preferred it over Shimano as it didn't have the 'new model, new tools' policy.

And don't forget the various integrated headsets-we can't keep up with the bearing and cup sizes!

Solid rant, Rev!:thumbup:

Umm standards for light bulbs... maybe in your home...
We maintain traffic signals, there are NEMA standards, but even in these standards, there are allways special features, which vary from manufacturer, to manufacturer.
Then Cal trans decided that they would make thier own spec, and low and behold it was a more costly item, as an analogy, you were forced into buying a hummer, when all you needed was a taxi.
Standards are great, but honestly, Shimano 9 speed chains are theoreticaly not the same as SRAM or KMC, they work, but a shimano chain wont wear the sides of a cog, like a SRAM will.
So there is your special feature.
hmmm now I feel beter!! End to rant... anyone wanna go for a beer?

Scoob

Because it has been like that forever doesn't make it right. Standards are a good thing. Period.

thanks rev, I know alot more now

I am not trying to start anything, but I have to defend Shimano some. Without them bikes would either be $100 Walmart bikes or $5000 full customs. Try and build up a bike with no Shimano parts on it and not spend a fortune(more than a $1000) but still have a nice bike. Especially a mountian bike.
They do screw up, the Dura/Ace BB is less than good. I have seen many failures including my own.
I wish they continued to offer 8-speed upper end shifters for people who just broke one shifter on an otherwise fine bike. That is something to get annoyed about.
The thing about Suntour compatibility was that they made no effort to be compatible with Shimano(neither does Campy) Altho the reason Suntour went out of business was not compatibility issues but due to a huge recall on coaster brake hubs, simple spec error, but it bankrupted the company. They made a good product.

I agree. They make cost efficient items but their newly found proprietary options are what is frustrating. While I know their bb and cranks have been proprietary that can be avoided and in fact still can.

I have no faith in the brake/shifter combo and believe it is too expensive for freeriders to fix. Most freeriders I know use CRAP drivetrain parts in order to save money. Deore deraileur and sometimes even low end road parts. Shimano is trying to increase the price of the drive train when thats not what we want. Lots of people break levers this is my number 1 complaint. The cost of these levers is going to be outrageous.

Past that the whole deraileur on the rear hub requiring ONLY shimanos discs. Well thats not good either. Their hubs blow. There are not enough engagement points and most high end freeriders don't use shimano hubs anymore. This means they can't have ANYTHING shimano on the rear of their drive train. In order for me not to diss shimano I see a couple of areas to fix

1 - make two options for shifters a) brake/shifter combo b)rapid fire
2 - Improve the quality of their hubs to match hopes or hadleys and this includes engagement points (if you are going to make high end parts you might as well make them all the way)
3 - don't force these changes on the LX or deore line...leave a good low end line

Those are my biggest complaints (I also don't like the deraileur attached to the hub but I can see why they would think its a good idea). If they try to force that expensive brake shifter combo down my throat then I can clearly say 'they suck'.

Without improvement there is stagnation! I personally do not like the new shifters for my own use, but for many, it's a nice feature. I applaude Shimano and all the other companies out there doing thing "outside the box" in an effort to improve the industry.

Personally, I think Shimano takes things too far and like the Rev. stated, no longer makes previous incarnations. It is my humble opinion, that the XTR 8-Speed Rapid Fire shifter paired to an XTR (NOT Rapid Rise) long cage with an XT Cassette was a good as it needed to get. I didn't like 9-Speed when it came out and still think it's too fragile for mountain biking. I've snapped my share of chains and taken my share of falls as a result.

It would be sooooo sweeeeeeeet if the new SAINT line went back to 7 speed with a WIDE chain, but that would be admitting fault, and Shimano would never take a step back. I'm sure they are trying to figure out how to make room for a 10-speed cassette or even Quad Chainring crankset.

The benefit to advancements is trickle down technology. Have you checked out some new $300 bikes? These would have been considered $1500 bikes back in, oh let's say, '95.

Be careful what you wish for, if Shimano went belly up, it would be a drastic blow to the cycling industry.

L8R

Yea they're good; the whole reason im upset is not because I dislike shimano, im a "fan," I just don't want to change the whole drivetrain when one part breaks, ya know?

well then dont change the whole drivetrain when one part breaks!!!!

edit : spell

easier said than done, please note maelstrom's last post (ex, saint rear derailleur)

psyklnut, I had forgotten Rapid Rise. You had to remind me. Rapid Rise, the answer to the question " What did the Shimano engineers do after the four day Meth/LSD bender?". We still have one of those XTR der. There is one guy that comes in every now and then to see if we still have it, he has one and likes it but won't commit to ours.