sometimes its better to chew than talk.

At this point ignoring business practices I think shimano has to make one move. Eliminate the deraileur. They have the money and there is definately a demand for a good internally gear hub. I have said it before and I will say it again, that would be the answer to most problems shimano is trying to fix with the new xtr and saint. If they really want to take components to the next level and be innovative do this. Roholff has done it but that hub adds weight and costs a fortune.

All I know is I am stocking up on rapid fire shifters and non-rapid rise anything and the day I run out I will have to find a source for my drive train. Because as is the new shimano shifters suck ass.

phatman must have some shimano stock in his portfolio.

LOL....

I do believe a few of us ( I dunno about all of you, but I have) at least tried the new Shimano stuff. I've tried a bike with the new XTR on it, with the STI stuff... and it feels crappy. I couldn't stand it at all. I'd accidentally shift when climbing, or go to grip the brake with a finger... and "squeeze on an angle" and the fricken thing would shift.

Yuck. No likie..

Go SRAM....

I tried the new XTR stuff just a few days ago and it will never reside on one of my bikes. I'll go back to grip shift before using this integrated junk. It just felt like missshifts waiting to happen and at the wrong time.

Yea the integrated thing is awful for any type of riding. Do they expect DH riders and whatnot to use that crap?

I want to try the next stuff, and I'm sure I will since even the XT line has been annexed as well. Only a matter of time. It just SEEMS like a bad idea. Rough, rocky terrain and brake levers that pivot in more than one direction can only mean one thing to me, but perhaps I'll be surprised. But right now I've no reason to use anything else but SRAM. I love my XO shifters and derailler. Simply awesome. Everything I've ever owned by SRAM has been top quality. I've been using their stuff since the 8 speed days of yore.

I don't particularly want Shimano to go away, they do produce a good product. My only gripe with Shimano is that they have the mindset of, "This is the NEW way of shifting. Do not retailiate, you WILL be assimilated" (Think Star Trek Borgs).

I really like my XTR rapid fire shifters and my non-rapid rise derailleur. But, HATE the new STI shifters. I don't like the way they feel and they're not compatible with other manuf. disc systems. Sure, they'll be around for a couple more years, but then they're GONE! I'll be forced to use the STI shifters or go with a different brand! Which I probably will when my XTR dies.

L8R

Noone said for shimano to go away.... i for one respect the quality of older shimano products... pre-2003 stuff, but i want the shimano policy to go away. To be honest i would rather see shimano go bankrupt rather that seeing her sueing other companies all the time. We are not all japanese and we DONT WANT the bloody new way of shifting. I ve tried the new XTR and it sucks bigtime, both drivetrain and most importantly brakes....the worst discs for tough conditions.

Regarding the price issue on Campy and Shimano:
actually Campy is more expensive than Shimano line vs. line....
Campy Daytona is not in the same class is Shimano Ultegra. This is how Campy and Shimano line up their classes against each other:

Campy Record lines up with Shimano Dura-ace
Campy Chorus lines up with Shimano Ultegra
Campy Daytona lines up with Shimano 105

Campy Record is about the same as Chorus but lighter. That is the same in Shimanos classes. The Dura-ace is about the same as Ultegra but lighter. Once you look at it like this, Campy is more than Shimano, class vs. class. This subject is not implying that one companies class is better than the other, just relaying the price issue.

i do use SRAM shifters too (rocket grips), n find them way better then anything shimano can throw at the market - it might be my personal preference of grips, but still, they just seem to work better for me. I limited myself to grips and rear V (magura hydro up front), for the reason that shimano does still hold an edge over SRAM when derauilers are concerned - had to stick with XTs there. SRAM always liked composites, and while theyre just fine on shifters, I have my doubts when we're talking derauilers - theres just too much load on those things, they will never be as strong and rigid as shimano equivalent.

Ya, I noticed that I am new to Mtb. and so I didn't really expect to find Shimano stuff on my new Cannondale, after just owning a crapy wal-mart bike with what?...shimano stuff. Kind of confusing, yes of course its much better shifting, but I was confused to see that Shimano is like the only company to make that stuff...you would think there would be more companies