Hi everyone. I am new to this site and new to bikes, a beginner, so I hope someone wil be nice and help me out I have been on the internet and telephone for days! with these questions, I guess I am getting more into bikes than I thought. Anyway, I have decided to get a MArin Pine Mountain, for approx. 70% road, 30% off-road. I will use it everyday for transportation as well as touring around, thru potholes, cobblestones, etc. The shop I went to has two 2000 models leftover (that they are eager to sell) and one is my size- it is very nice tho, I liked the ride a lot.
I am wondering tho - is the 2002 that much better of a bike to get? The 2000 is on sale for $850 including tax, the 2002 is about four hundred dollars more (around $1200) which I owuld get if I thought it would last longer. There are some differences- from an XT rear der. to an XTR on the 2002. Also- I am concerned about brakes- the 2000 has "V" (SD-20)brakes which I have been told are easier to repair should something go wrong, while the 2002 has "ball bearing disk brakes" which I was told would be harder to fix by yourslef, probably have to take it in a shop but that they are "so good, they'llnever break anyway"?? What about in rainy weather-I'm going to be going in weather crazy places. The disk brakes were said to be better for that- true?
(i am sorry for the heaps of questions! i just want to learn and it is hard to do with the people selling you the bike and even other bike places sometimes!) Oh- someone told me that it's minimal but that the fork could "leak oil" (??) because it hasn't been ridden for so long?? (referring to the 2000 model). The 2002 also has something called "threadless" parts (no idea)--
Can anyone give me some feedback on which one I should get?
I know this is a lot, but I willbe so happy to get help in this decision, which I have been researching forver!
Please send all replies to my PM at: emma_trust@hotmail.com
(that's one 'lower hypen' between first and last name just in case it underlines everything and you weren;t sure!)
Thanking you HEAPS in advance,
cheers, Emma

Let's look at your items 1 at a time

-For the type of riding you will do, an XT derail. will be more than fine.

-The brakes. This item will probably be the deciding factor for you. Disc brakes are great for off road riding. I would usually say for someone riding mostly on the road, discs are necessary. However, they are great for riding in snow and wet conditions. The Pine Mountain has Avid mechanical brakes which several reviews have raved about. It would cost you more than $400 to upgrade to discs if you bought the 2000 bike (provided it has the proper mounts). So, if you think you need the discs now or in the future, the 2002 is the choice. Otherwise, V-brakes provide the next best stopping power.

-Fork leaking oil? Doubtful. I wouldn't worry about it. The shop should take care of it anyway since you are buying it new.

-Threadless refers to how the stem mounts to the fork. You want threadless, but I'm pretty sure a 2000 Pine Mountain should have a threadless setup. Only low end MTB bikes have used threaded (opposite of threadless!!!) setups for the past 5 years or so.

Good luck, hope that helps.

The Marin is a good bike and what you've listed as the differences are pretty minimal in regard to the two bikes.

The XT vs XTR is minimal for your level of riding.

The vee-brakes are just as good as the mechanical (ball-bearing) discs, performance wise, for the type of riding you've described. Unless the mechanicals are Avids, then they're better. The only significant concern would be if you would ever upgrade to full hydraulic discs; much better performance, but a lot more money as an accessory. The reason being, if you bought the 2000 model and then decided to go with discs, you would have to make sure the frame has disc tabs (mounts) you would also need disc specific hubs (which the 2000 model probably doesn't have) ...etc. It would cost you a lot more later on if you went to discs down the road. With the 2002 model, you would only need to buy the brakes (calipers and rotors).

My only reason to suggest the 2002 model would be the fork. The technology has improved significantly from year to year in the suspension area. Threadless is the way to go. Not that the threaded fork is bad, just old technology! This would require a new stem as well if and when you upgraded the fork. This may not be an issue for you and for $400 you could get a great fork and a stem.

With all this stated, the 2000 model would be the way I would lean. The component differences aren't significant (not $400 worth anyways) and you may not ever upgrade any parts anyways. If you do, the only limiting factor would be if you wanted to go discs and the frame doesn't have tabs welded to it. Otherwise the 2000 model sounds like a great deal! Plus, take some of the money you've saved and buy a decent helmet and a good pair of cycling shorts.

Thank you a lot for the replies so far! I am very grateful.
I think the 2000 is good too...I know I want the best, bestest bike between the two...I know that I'm not racing it or competing or anything, yet for some reason I feel that I must have these extra things (really I'm practical too) because I know I'll really be Using! this bike and I want to love it!, you know? =) So....
I definitely want to be sure about the brake thing being all right on whichever bike I get. I will be in the snow and rain as well as the desert (believe me the bike will be getting a workout even tho I'll be going mostly asphalt and/or concrete, and some dirt trails). If anyone would like the specifics about the brakes, this is straight from the Marin brochure description:

Pine Mountain 2000: Columbus Shimano LX shifters, Shimano LX
front derailer. Shimano XT rear derailer
11-32 Shimano HG-70 cassette.
LX splined Crankset. Avid SD-20 Brakes.
Avid DS-1.9L Brake Leversumbus. Thron with
Mega TT and DT . Manitou SX-R fork
Tange Seiki DX-2 Headset w/Alloy cups

Pine Mountain 2002: Shimano LX shifters. Shimano LX front
derailer. Shimano XTR rear derailer, Shimano
XT 12-34 cassette, Shimano LX hallowtech,
splined 22/32/44 Crankset
Avid Ball bearing disk brakes, brake calipers.
Avid Speed Dial 7 Brake levers (what does
this mean??) the new fork on this one By
the way is called-Answer Mars Comp Coil,
w/80 mm of travel fork, WTB Grease lite
Comp Al Threadless 1 1/8" headset.

Again, I am really thankful for the advice and information ppl have given! It is helpful (esp. abt what some things are and do, etc!),
Emma

First of all, congrats on getting a bike! There is not much I can add to the above advice but I'll try. Both bikes are good so you can't really go wrong. The key difference is the brakes. The V-brakes on the 2000 model are Avid's lower end models but they will still be very good brakes. The biggest advantage to discs is in wet conditions, however and since you are going to be riding in wet and snowy conditions you might want to consider this.

As was pointed out above, upgrading to discs later on can be more expensive then going for it now. If the hubs are not disc-type then you can't mount a disc rotor and you will have to buy new wheels ($$) or have the current ones rebuilt on disc hubs (also $$). And the frame and forks have to have disc tabs. The Avid disk brakes get great reviews. Perhaps Spic-Mick can comment; I know he bought a set a few months ago.

The difference in the brake levers is not huge. The speed dial is an adjustment on the levers to control the lever pull/cable pull ratio. But the SD in SD-1.9L also refers to speed dial so the 2000 model also has this feature.

As for the "threadless", this refers to the headset/fork/stem junction. I agree with riderx, I am 99% sure that both bikes are threadless. The most obvious visual difference is in the stems: Threaded stems fit inside the fork and threadless fit aroundthe top of the fork. I will try and find some examples for you.

Wow! A steel MTB! Very nice! [I love steel, and I think Columbus Thron is a wonderful material for a mountain bike].

The clear advantages to the 2002 over the 2000...

XTR rear derailleur, slightly better fork, hollowtech crank, very slightly lighter wheels.

The disk brakes are a toss-up. They will deliver better stopping power than v-brakes and they're the lastest tech... but v-brakes are enough for 99% of stopping situations, they're significantly lighter and much easier to service.

So... the frames are identical, the weights are probably about the same [I'd say 23-24 lb for a 17" bike], the 2002 has slightly higher spec [XTR is a noticeably better rear derailleur than XT, but XT is still excellent], but it costs considerably more.

Which colour do you like better, and do you feel comfortable spending 50% more for 10% more bike? On the other hand, you should always go with the gut because you will have to ride this steed for the rest of its life.

Hi ! At the risk of sounding overly nice, THANK YOU!!! all again for your explanations and thoughts. *I like this site!*

from the details given it looks like, for me, both bikes offer just
a b o u t. the same function and features. Gosh- it is so hard to decide. Why? Why?! (it is fun deciding tho)
For the steel-lover-- yay! That is one of the main reasons I'm going with Marin, because I wanted a good steel frame. I was actually going to get a Giant until someone randomly told me abt Marins. I am not too worried abt weight, as I'm just under 130lbs
(or 9 stone). am abt. 5' 6 1/2" so....

I do have an extended question (maybe someone answered it and I am not getting it but-- if i were to go w/the 2000 "V" brake- bike, do you think the brakes would do well in the rain? I mean, would it *easily or unfortunately do you think, wear down or break apart/crack/however it wouldn't work?



...and am i allowed to ask a trivial question?

Since Dances with Bikes asked,and i was turning it around as an afterthought already...the color of the PM2000 is a deep forest green, which I really like. And the color of the PM2002 is white,
which I am sort of neutral on, tho I kinda like it. Even tho it is eons away, I keep thinking that rust would look even more ugly on a white bike! What does anyone think?

ok, and one last (paranoid) question for the road: why would a bicycle shop have leftover bikes from two years ago? Is it common? They wouldn't go riding it in their spare time would they?! (please forgive me, these are my last-moment-just-before-bike-buying-random thoughts- I am sure theywouldn't ride it really-- i wish anyone who knew bikes was here to go with me, but I am brave! and with all this great advice, it'll be just like I am an expert almost.
Emma
-how do i get one of those neat side-pictures & cool nams for my profile? (now i need to go up to the library and get a computer self-tutorial) thank you again for all the help

I almost forgot! MudGaurdS! (this is my last one, =)
Would this bike model be ok with mud guards or no?
If they'd be ok, can anyone recommend a good, decent priced
set of mudguards.

Cheers,
Emma (i need some sleep--insomnia not good must sleep

Mudguards are sometimes a bit of a compromise on an ATB. Suspension forks rule out a traditional fitting front guard, but rather than just a 'crud catcher' which fits to your down-tube you can buy 3/4 length guards that fit under the bridge of the fork and provide fairly good protection. Many of the rear seatpost mounted guards can't really be used with a pannier rack. Again you can get 3/4 length guards that fit on the seat stays, but whilst they'll keep the worst of the muck off you, don't expect a spotless back - I speak from experience

Few ATB's are suitable for full-length guards but check with your bikeshop - SKS do chromoplastic full-length guards with safety breakaway support struts - these would be your best bet if they fit. Tyre clearance can be as much a problem as lack of mounts on the frame (p-clips solve a lot of these), particularly if you're going somewhere muddy.

Richard

It's not that v-brakes don't work in the rain, it's just they don't work as well. With decent v-brakes (Avid brakes have a great reputation, Shimano brakes not so good) and equally importantly good brake pads, v-brakes will stop you in the wet fairly rapidly, just not as rapidly as in the dry. Some brake pads work better in the wet than others (e.g. I've found fibrax pads work superbly in the dry but not wonderfully in the wet). Koolstop pads seem to be generally highly regarded.

If you do go for v-brakes, gently easing your brakes on and off, every so often in the wet, helps prevent too much water build up on the rims. Keeping your rims clean, free of muck/oil and slightly rough helps a lot. Some rims have a better braking surface than others.

Brake wear will vary a lot depending on your own conditions, but generally the rear pads will need replacing more often than the front. Replacement isn't truly difficult (cartridge systems are very easy) but can be a bit fiddly. V-brakes are generally very reliable and once set up don't need that much adjustment, just an occasional lube.

Richard

Some quick answers...

V-Brakes in the rain: They work perfectly well in the rain. They may squeal when your rims get wet, but that's normal. The real stopping advantage to disk brakes comes when you're trying to stop at 50 km/h on a steep descent in the woods with mud caking your rims. V-brakes will perform very poorly in that kind of situation, disk brakes will be much better, Ask yourself if you will ever be in that situation.

Rust: Although steel does rust, quality steel bicycle frames will not rust in normal use for many, many years [we're talking decades here]. Just pop the saddle off your bike after you ride in the rain and drain out any water. You may also want to spray the insides of the tubes with WD40 a couple of times a year. Unless you leave you bike outside in the rain every night, you will not see any rust on the frame.

Overstock: It is hard to sell bikes. Period. Bike shops typically buy their stock from distributors every year. If they don't sell it, they're stuck with it -- they can't just send it back because they own it. This is particularly a problem with larger and smaller framed bikes, and it's not uncommon. In fact, if you want to haggle, you could probably get the price down a little more, since the bike has already been entered in the 2000 losses and any money he makes on the sale will be 2002 profit.

The 2000 Pine Mountain appears to be a very well-thought-of bike. Look at the reviews at MTB Review.

[In case you're wondering, I'm mostly a roadie, but I like to hang-out with my muddy, baggy-shorted buddies here in the MTB forum from time to time.

Couple other thoughts. Regarding fenders. Do you want a commuter type fender or a moto fender (similar to a Motocross Motorcycle) If you want a great looking fender that is very light and looks great (IMO) check out Toby Hendersen Enterprises (THE) most mail-order mountain bike sites carry them. I don't have their web address, but a quick search should prove successful. They come in a variety of colors and they have many styles to virtually fit any application. (No, I don't work for them, I just like their products).

Back to the brakes thingy. The vee brakes will work great for 99% of your riding. The only time you really need discs, as stated is in muddy downhill conditions. Granted I'm running disc on my bike, for three reasons. 1) I work at a shop and get a good deal on em. 2)I'm riding a Cannondale Lefty and have no choice but to use discs. 3)Let's face it, I like to have cool things on my bike. But I work at a shop, so I'm constantly tinkering with my bike.

Also, the fork on the 2000 is a good fork. It's not top of the line, but it'll work great for you for years to come.

BTW, I've got a couple of bikes and on my other bike, I'm running the same exact brakes and levers that are on the 2000 model. They work great and once set-up you can leave alone!

Good luck and post a pic of whichever bike you end up with!

Youve got yourself a great bike there. Dont worry about the brakes, they are very good. Only in the gloopiest mud do disk brakes have an advantage, and you tend not to go fast under those conditions.
Before you go out and abuse it, coat the clean frame with several layers of car wax, and dirt will drip off.

If you doing mixed riding, pay special attention to tyre choice.
For riding on roads, a 1.5" slick will be best.
For mixed road and trails, a touring tyre, with a solid centre bead and knobbly edges will be best.
For riding in mud, use a mud tyre rather than a dust tyre. Most bikes are sold with tyres more suited to California summertime than wet winters. Continental make some good mud tyres, with fewer knobbles, and no sharp corners for mud to hide in.
If you switch surfaces regularly, it may be worth investing in two sets of wheels, and keep them mounted with different tyres.

If you are using your bike for commuting, then I would say fit fenders. For off road use, its up to you how clean you want to stay, but dont expect a warm reception in pubs and restaurants if you are covered in mud.

I just bought a 2000 model manitou SXR a couple months ago on closeout and will attest to the quality of the ride. It's a very plush fork that should suit your needs. What they told you about oil leaking is true, mine leaked a little oil last week. Is this a major concern? I don't know, but I bet one of these guys could lend you and I some advise . OH and if I were you I would definitely try to haggle your way to a sweeter price on the 2000 model, they must really want to unload that thing which gives you bargaining power!!

Retail inside tip.
When you are looking for a discount, it is cheaper for the shop to give you the money in equiv goods. You get the full value, they lose their profit on the goods only. Use that oppertunity to get any accessories or spares you want.

Michael makes a good point, it's also the time to get any upgrades you might want (although with that spec. you probably won't want much swapped over). Shops will often swap parts for nothing to get a sale - it's worth trying to get the saddle and tyres swapped if you know you'll prefer something else.

Richard

Absolutely brilliant tips and thanks to everyone!! I am learning a lot, and am really grateful for you all taking the time to fill me in.

Especially about the "V" brakes and disk brakes and riding weather comparisons and also- even tho now that i see it typed and it seems simple, I am glad for the tip about what to do w/yr saddle after riding in the rain, maintenaince to prevent rust. I'm truly a beginner and this is my first real bike so I'm definitely up for any basics or do-it-yrself ways to save $ or time, etc.

Also I was happy to know about the brakes squeling being nrmal in the rain (it is v. possible I'll be in Ireland/rainy riding a lot).

Advice at the extra/spare tire types was also great. Mainly, I'll be on road, but maybe 30% (?) or so off. Of course, I'll clean up before going to any pubs or having a meal =) Unless it is some kind of emergency in which case I hope the proprietors would be understanding and hospitable In one article I read in National Geographic where a reporter (on his own time) went roading on the coast from Darwin to Perth, he had (only one) kind of rotten experience at a hostel/eatery when he asked if he could refill his 3 or 4 water bottles (they brusquely informed him that he would have to pay for water here so he was just going to fill up one or two until the next town, but before he answered they told him to "leave")?! Later, when they found out he was a reporter for NG they were apologetic. I don't understand ppl sometimes.
I'm not going tobe in Australia (anytime soon that I know of-- tho you really never know!) He also went thru various dusteee towns and acordingly, was pretty gritty at some of his stops, which is more likely to be my case(s),and I can shake off the snow or dirt (hopefully not mud!) before heading into a place.

I wrote down most of everything in a "bikenotebook" I'm starting so I can refer to it.

It looks like I'll be going w/the PM2000 I think, and you know what? The dealers (the lady-owner helping me) actually did something that you said I should do, I think, only I didn't really realize it. She put on "clipless pedals" to the 2000 (which i don't think it comes with but which i liked) I think they may be from the 2002 one. I hope she still puts them on when I go back in soon(!) I've herad they're v. nice esp. for touring or going long-distances. ~ I am not v. good at all at "bargaining" or trying to change prices and stuuf, even when I know that I should or can or whatever, I tend to not expect, but hope?) that the sellers will offer me stuff like that of their own. Is there any nice way I can "haggle" or should? The ppl there seemed pretty nice, and she'll prob. keep the pedals for me, but is there something that is normally given to you or an expression to use that might help me do better? I know for sure that I need to get a flashing tail light and I'd like a headlight. (a friend may be able to get me a fre helmet s i'm holding off on that for the moment).
Should I just let her "give me a discount" on her own? Silly thought I know,but I am gnerally a non-confrontational person and don't like being v. aggressive.
Money is awful, everything should be barter and everyone could share!

I am trying to reply back asap to all yr good help.
Prob. going intomorrow or Sat for the Bike

cheers,
Emma

Couple of quick thoughts. As far as rust prevention goes, invest in a can of "Frame Saver", should be around $10 or less. It is something you stray on the inside of steel frames which coats and protects the frame from rusting. It is a little work to do initially, but will be worth it in the long run. You might ask the shop to do it for you, they'll probably charge you, but you might be able to negotiate that labor if they don't budge on price.

As far as the clipless pedals, most bikes(exceptlow end bikes) don't come with any pedals because they are a personal preference item. So, if they don't offer the pedals, give a "gee, I thought the pedals came with the bike" and maybe they will throw them in.

As far as haggling, just ask in a respectful and sincere way. Bike shops are used to people always trying to haggle. Money always talks, so if you can pay cash for the bike and have a wad in your pocket, it always helps in the negotiations. Also, I would check around for a comprable close-out bike (or this year's model) at another shop and tell them you are wavering between the two of them and ask what their best deal is because that will be the deciding factor. It always helps to be able to walk out if they don't want to budge (even if you know you'll be back) - tell them you are going to go look at the other bike again.

Well, not sure if that qualified as a couple of quick thoughts, but good luck!

Hi. For RiderX SSEvang. thanks, yeah, i kinda last week told the shop i wanted to think about it (check it out more, which obviously i have been doing like crazily-thoroughly on here!)

They have been v. nice about it. Yeah, the newer models for PM Marin don't come out even till mid-Feb. Giant had some very nice bikes that I tried out which were on close out too. I also tried what is called a GT Agressor which was on sale for 750. i think on close out, a last yr. model, but the size was a bit either too big , maybe why i felt it didn't ride as smooth, but i have heard that it is a very good deal. What sold me on steel (other than the general knowledge that it lasts forever, almost was when I tried the Giant Boulder bike, but since it is an entry level MTB, even tho the ride was awesome, i guess it doesn't have v. good componetry. . . So, today is Friday and I am going to go in today or tomorrow morning I think for the Marin yay
I've a little while yet so..., but I have gotten all the majr. tips covered so far w/fantastic help here, all the threadless/fork/tyre/brake/everything youall have given is very appreciated! Guess I will take cash w/me if RdrX above is right (better than checks for some reason?)

Ok, it's getting close
Emma

Hope you enjoy your new bike.

might be worth buying a bike book , e.g I always think "Richard's Bicycle Book" is a good mix of writing which is enthusiatic about bikes as well as providing basic maintenance tips and a bit on the culture of cycling.
happy trails!!

Cash is better than cheque because it ends up in the shop's till right away. The shop has to wait a day or two for cheques to clear and, considering that they tend to operate a bit hand-to-mouth [particularly at this time of year], that is not ideal for them.

How do you ask for a deal on a deal? Be nice. Just say something like "I really like this bike, and I want to get it, but is there anything else you can do for me?" They may not have a lot of budge space on price but, as MichaelW pointed out, they are always accessories. You'll NEED ahelmet. Maybe you can get them to sell you a $35 helmet for $25. You'll want bottle cages and water bottles. Maybe you can get them to throw those in.

You say the shop is giving you clipless pedals. I think that's great, but you'll need special shoes... maybe you can get them to sell you a $50 pair of shoes for $30... It all adds up.

Also with cash rather than credit card, the cost to the shop is less.

If you pay by card they have to pay a percentage to Visa or whoever, so with cash you should try to get a wee discount.

Good advice and pointers once again,
the bicycle book sounds like a good idea! Someone else recently recommedned another one called The Haynes Bicycle Book by Bob Henderson. I definitely should check out some reading material to learn about the hypercracker and spoke wrench thingies. Useful stuff to know.
Looks like I'm heading there (bike place) tomorrow!
I'll go with taking cash with me then.
--read a thread somehwere around here that said suspension bikes on the road are bad?? This only has front suspension...
i don't think thats a negative? (last minute checks again)
By this time tomorrow I will be riding my new bike
*Has anyone ever ridden their new bike home from the store?
It's just that I don't have a car and will be taking the bus somewhat far out...so really i'm buying it for riding right?

Peace, Emma

ps~ To the Flying Scot~ i am envious of you (in the best way)
Scotland? Lucky! I was in Bath, Eng. a few summers ago but
never made it up to Scotland. You even get to see
"Maccullum" (if you want) (i'm a John Hannah fan)

When we moved offices, John Hannah was filming a scene at Cafe St Honore in the lane behind. I saw him and his screen daughter (the series is set in Edinburgh) but of course didn't get to speak to them.

I have to say, my wife is more of a fan than I am.!

I wouldn't worry about riding your bike home from the shop, but remember it'll feel strange and I think you "grow into" using a bike as you get used to it's settings.

For example, I can always hit the right gear on my own bike using friction down tube levers, but on someone elses tend to under or over change.

Suspension on the road: Not necessarily a bad thing. You do lose some energy when climbing with suspension, and on road bikes you usually don't want suspension for the weight reason also. But, considering the all around usage of your bike, suspension is a good choice for you. Ask the shop to show you how the adjustments work and to explain what they are for. You can have them set the fork up "stiff" for your on road adventures and then make it more responsive for the times when you head off road. It's a 2 minute operation which involves turning 2 or 3 knobs (depending on the model).

Good luck. The snow should be here shortly and then I'm hitting the trails in it. Nothing quite like a snow ride.