Taking a chance with the 160mm as being a great buy. I liked the beefier stachion tubes on the 55 as compared to my 44 Bomber on my hardtail which is a 140mm fork.

The rake seems okay with no issues but like I said, no idea til I take it through some paces.

Good deal. Yeah most people I've talked to running this frame are running anywhere from 100mm forks upwards of 140, and now I've heard a 160 in the mix.

Let me know how it works out for you. I'm curious to see how you like it.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma myself. Like you, I've always been a hardtail fan, and this frame is an opportunity to get me into full suspension biking. Perhaps you can offer your 2 cents on my situation as to what you would do... Basically I bought a RockShox Tora 120mm Solo Air fork w/ 20mm axle, literally, 2 weeks ago, and not only that but I bought the Motion Control upgraded damper. It's on my hardtail now, so I hate to not even use the Tora that much when it's brand new and move on to something else already. I don't want to be limited, like I hate to get a 4" (XC) FS bike and decide later I want a 6" (AM) bike. At the same token, I hate to spend a chunk of change on an AM frame/fork to find out it's not "me". My dilemma basically has two options.

A - I save up, get an AM frame and a new fork to match the geometry, and keep the Tora on my hardtail and prob make the hardtail a single speed.
B - I spend the 300 bones, get this 4" travel XC frame, use it with my current fork, and put my old fork on the hardtail and run it as a single speed.

I hate to spend upwards of 800 (500 for frame, assuming, 300 for longer travel fork to match geometry) just to find out that an AM frame is too burly for the climbing I do, etc. Yet I hate to get the XC 204 and feel limited. Yet at the same token, if I've been fine up until now on a hardtail without ever breaking a single one, perhaps that's a sign to stfu, get the XC 204, and have fun.

Thoughts?

Well my case is similar to yours. I wanted to expand to the f/s area without sinking alot into it if I dislike it. I like rigidity on my rides rather than too much plushness. That is where I am old school and like the hardtails. As soon as I got my 09' Felt Q720 hardtail I took the Dart 2 off and replaced with a Marz Bomber 44 air fork with 140mm travel. That thing still climbs like a goat and the new fork is just so much better than the Dart 2.

With the KHS build I wanted to beef it up a bit over the basic specs. of the Felt. So I went with the slightly wider and heavier Azonic Outlaw wheels which added yes weight, but are still manageable to me for XC and single track trail riding. I also wanted a beefier fork for those large exposed root beds and rocks as well as stumps we have here in the NC mountains on our single track trails. So with that the build was somewhat dictated already with the only thing to decide on the other components and whether to save extreme weight at a great cost or go with middle of the road componetry. I went mid road and used Deore XT FD with the SLX RD. So the build was pretty much a bike that was/is cpapble of XC/trail riding with no real weight concern.

I can climb my steep drive with this and it feels like my hardtail minus getting use to the rear suspension. That to me is the hardest thing to get use to. The RS Bar 2.1 can take up to easily 250 psi which makes it real rigid. I run 195 psi and it feels like it may be close to dialed in once I hit a trail to see. I weigh 190 lbs. so while not a clydesdale......I am heavy. But at 6' tall I find I am alright. I hope to lose more weight to around 180-185 lbs. to maintain and I should be able to climb with this bike as good as my Felt. I really don't think this bike weighs much more than my hardtail believe it or not.......need to weigh both and see.

I don't do extreme downhill......not sure the very definition of it but I like screaming down single track in the woods downhill and jump berms and switchbacks which to me is trail riding. So the KHS fits the bill for sure. The only reason I really bought the frame to test the waters because some of the trails I ride are real damn teeth jarring with a hardtail and the f/s I hope will take some of that away on days I want to tackle the rough stuff. My Felt will certainly remain in the stable as a great XC/trail bike for sure. Two bikes are better than one for sure. Like mood swings........which do I want to ride today.

Hope this helps and did not confuse you. As soon as I can get a ride report I will post for you to see. I know each person is different so if it works for me it might not neccessarily for you but it gives you an idea.

Thanks for the response. Yeah it pretty much summed up what I was curious about. My problem was I got into biking thinking the different classes of biking were simply tiers, and downhill was the God of bikes, then there's FR, then AM, then XC, etc. I had to wipe what I knew and had to learn and understand that while that hierarchy might be true in terms of what abuse the bikes can take (aka who can jump off the largest roof and probably survive), it's actually the exact opposite in reality of things since trails and riding styles can vary so differently, and that while a true DH bike might be able to take more punishment, the reality is it sucks for anything else. I was reading about how some XC racers actually downsize their suspension travel to only 80mm front and rear or whatever their preference is. I'm not doing any racing though, I just want a nice bike to, like you, bomb down some trails and know it'll do the job. I just hate to get this frame and before I know it, I'm wanting something with 6" travel (where bikes are typically considered all mountain), etc. But like I said, I have a hard time believing that will be the case considering how long I've ridden hardtails without a single issue...

Mr. BurnNotice - I have a question for you and decided to throw it here instead of a PM for the benefit of other users. Does this frame come with a headset installed, or did you have to get your own headset installed accordingly? I emailed WheelWorld, who previously got back to me with my other 2 questions very promptly, but I haven't gotten anything back yet and I'm antsy to hear what the scoop is.

TY VM.

It does. It is a Tioga zero stack and the headset cups were already installed. I however chose not to use that headset. I went with a Ritchey. I just don't care for headsets with the drop in bearings rather than a sealed unit. Don't know if my description was good enough in that previous sentence. In other words the headset has the bearings in a ring both top and bottom for you to insert when installing. I like a sealed unit and chose to get a Ritchey from ProBikeKit overseas in the UK for $45 which is a nice headset with sealed bearing cage.

I see. So at least it comes with something to get me started... that's good news. When installing the other headset, did you need any sort of press to do it? Or was it easy to swap out? (never installed a headset, probably one of the few things I haven't done on a bike yet).

I'm getting antsy. I ordered this thing saturday and WheelWorld just says processing for my order. It didn't even deduct the charge from my account yet.

Yes if you decide to go with another headset you would have to knock out the cups. This is easy with a small light hit of a hammer and a screw driver if that is all you have. To do it right a headset remover which I have now can be bought for like $20 at most places. To install another headset since it is a 44mm opening would be a press. These range in price from $55 to $120. I found a Sette at Price POint for like $60 which is like the $120 Park version. Works just as good. However, without a headset press to get the cups in you can use things around the house but it is tedious. You can use a rubber mallet and a block of white pine 2x4 and very carefully hammer a headset cup in. Works.......but very tedious if the headset has a tight tolerance.

You will find adding tools along the way is just as important as anything if you want to maintain your rides rather than pay a lbs to maintain them. I like wrenching as much as riding. So I have been adding back to all my tools I sold years ago which I wish I had kept.

You will like the frame for sure. The Rock Shox Bar 2.1 rear shock is decent that comes on the bike. I am trying to dial it in. It took me forever to find the max. psi you can put in this thing but safely to say 250 psi. I weigh 189 lbs. and put 195 psi in mine. It was a bit stiff but no discernable pedal bob. I took maybe 10 lbs. out and it is better.

So keep this in mind when you start adjusting psi in the rear shock. It is a basic entry level shock but I figure I will wear it out before replacing. My next rear shock will have lockout on it.

Hope this helps answering some questions for you. If you need anything else just post here or PM me. Glad to assist.

Yeah, I hear that about the tools. I have quite a lot of tools though... the last tool I want to get is a derailleur hanger alignment tool. I never needed one but on two occasions I was having shifting issues and lugged my bike to the LBS to find the hanger was straight. It would have been nice to have taken care of that here at home. Not to mention my buddy's derailleur took a direct hit last week and put a nice curve in the hanger, it would have been nice to helped him out. I have a lot of other stuff though... pretty much everything else I need, even a truing stand and array of tools for parts I don't even have... In terms of a headset, though, that's just something I haven't messed with yet. I tend to buy tools as I need them and learn accordingly, whereas a headset I've never touched, ever, so I have no tools for it. So if the frame comes with a headset, I can at least get by with it for now. I'm pretty much dirt poor at this point, so even a cheap headset is pushing the bank a little bit.

One question I have though is in regard to rear shocks in general. Not sure if you know the answer BurnNotice but I figured I'd throw it here anyway in case anybody out there can bite on it. I've been taking greater notice lately at how frames are built, their geometry, pivots, rear triangle, etc. I've also taken a good look at a lot of rear shocks. Now, the rear shock isn't what exactly allows the range of travel to happen, is it? I say that because when we want a 100mm travel fork, we get just that. If we want a 170mm fork, we get just that. But what about a rear shock? I don't see travel specifications on any of them that I come across. Is it the design, geometry, pivot setups, and rear triangle designs that dictates how far the rear wheel can travel? And the rear shock just provides the resistance accordingly?

Good question that maybe someone here with much more knowledge can answer. My understanding a frame when you buy it will say what travel it is rated like 4" or 5" so have you. The shock however is rated on travel if you look at the specs. I am not sure for I have not measured my travel yet with the o-ring on the shock. I know I have not bottomed out or near it from what I can feel and see. But remind you, I have yet to really take this bike on a single track trail with some great range to put the shock through some paces.

I have found that whatever a fork is rated I can never quite get to that much travel either. If it is 140mm like on my hardtail I may get on real big dips that compress the fork maybe 4.75" or maybe 5" of travel where as 140mm equates to 5.5" travel.

So I can't really say on this subject yet. I am real new to full suspension bikes for sure. Hopefully someone will chime in and educate me as well. Just from observation and the movement of the o-ring on the rear shock from travel at current psi I am getting about 2.75"-3" travel on the shock. But I suspect that there is an equation there that equates to more actual travel on the rear suspension. Just my assumption however.

Eye to eye on the rear shock as measured by me for future ref. for replacing is 6.5" center to center.

BurnNotice - The crankset you installed was an external bottom bracket kind - right?

How did the bottom bracket shell look? Did it need facing or was it parallel and smooth from the factory?

The BB came with the RaceFace crank. It is the external cups with like a plastic sleeve that fits through the BB. No facing needed. I have read where folks sometimes have to face and such on headsets and BB but I have never had to in all the road bikes and now this mtn. bike I built up.

Now my Felt hardtail had a internal BB but I also switched out the stock Tru-Vativ that came on it for a RaceFace crank too. It did not need facing either. If it did I would not have know on either to be honest. That gets into more complex mechanics which I would not feel comfortable doing without seeing it done by a pro first.

Do you have any plans for a crankset? Reason I ask and don't be shy to say you have something in mind or don't care for it, but I have the Tru-Vativ that came on my Felt that was used like for 20 miles only that I would like to unload. Don't really need it. It is a 44-32-22 triple with the internal BB. Heck, I would let that thing go for like $25 shipped if interested. That is to say if your looking to just do a build cheaply right now. If not I understand. It is a entry level crank for sure but worked............I just wanted to put something much nicer on my hardtail at the time and found a RaceFace Limited in red color which I was looking for.

In fact I need to pull it from the box and advertise it here to see if anyone needs a crank for cheap. I need to see too if it has any issues as well.

BTW- Did they ship the frame yet to you? I know you said they were showing it being processed.

Well wait, it's an internal bb? (the one for sale) I have a crankset w/ an internal bb, I was just curious about getting one with an external bb which is why I was asking about the facing. I was just going to use my existing crank since I didn't want to dump a solid 80+ into another crankset. My biggest concern about it was regarding the facing. I know my LBS can do it, and I'd rather do that since the tool is a couple hundred bucks, but I wasn't sure if it was needed since quality control on frames of today tends to be a little better than before. But at the same time, I wanted to make sure and do things right.

They didn't ship it yet. Little peeved at that, but yesterday afternoon they finally accepted payment and it was deducted from my account. I hope it ships today.

Facing doesn't involve the BB, it's something you do to the BB shell on the frame. Sometimes it needs to be done because of paint or PC, or it wasn't finished cleanly. That's what he is asking about...not the BB itself.

Yes that is what I meant to say the threaded shell. Guess I thought it was understood.

Aight, so wait, just so I'm clear - In your opinion the finish on the BB shell is smooth enough (both metal and paint) that you don't believe it needs to be faced for use with external BB cranksets. Correct?

(this fricken frame needs to ship, damnit)

If there is paint or powder coating on the faces of the shell, face it. Don't need a fancy tool or the shop to do it; an Xacto knife and patience are all it takes (but you gotta be careful). But do get it to bare metal.

Do you end up shaving much metal off during this process? Or is it just a very shy amount?

That's why I say you need to be patient and careful. If done correctly, you only take off paint/pc. If you don't have a steady hand or don't trust yourself, it might be better to have it done.

Just called the bike shop. 55 bones to have it done. blah.

I think I'll be sticking with my octalink crankset for quite some time yet...

What's the consequence of not facing it? Just simply potential crank/bb damage, or can it damage the actual frame shell too?

EDIT - I called the bike shop back and asked what the price included, which was installation/removal of old/new cranksets too. I said well it's just a bare frame and they said oh we'd knock some off of it for you then. Not sure how much, but at least it'd be some bucks saved. That is, WHEN I get around to getting a new crankset. My octalink crankset is relatively new yet...