gsteinb

I don't think the steroids of Merckx's era had a minimal effect, and the steroids of Armstrong's era had a maximal effect. What's unquestionable though is that the steroids of Merckx's era don't compare to EPO (not a steroid) in increasing the body's ability to move oxygen.

Science is science.

It's also true that sometimes guys on internet forums actually know what they're talking about because they're old, and have been involved in sports for 3 or 4 decades.

Cat4Lifer

I'm not sure if you're joking or if your reading comprehension is really this impoverished. Please quote where I said Frankie or Betsy said any of that? You won't, because I never said or hinted they said that. What I did say was that he and his wife had maintained the false idea that Frankie had begun doping in 1999.

THE ANDREU'S STORY & THE DATING GAME I

In the fall of 1996 Betsy Kramar (Betsy's maiden name) said she first learned of Armstrong's use of illegal PEDs when she overheard Armstrong admit to his doctors he had used EPO, HGH, testosterone, and cortisone. Armstrong's admission, says Betsy, bothered her enough to question her impending marriage to Frankie. As noted in David Walsh's book, From Lance to Landis, Betsy, according to Frankie, was visibly upset at having heard Armstrong list the PEDs he had used. Betsy claims to have threatened ending their engagement if Frankie was doping. Frankie, wanting to calm Betsy down and save their relationship, reassured her that he was not and had not used PEDs:



Frankie, we're told, had to put up with some chiding from Armstrong for refusing to dope. In March of 1999, Walsh tells of a story in chapter 16 of From Lance to Landis where Armstrong is supposed to have teased Frankie, in front of Betsy, for his refusal to dope and work with Ferrari: "You could get results, too, but you're too cheap." Betsy, in her affidavit, says that Frankie told her that the financial cost wasn't the only thing that bothered her husband. Frankie, she said, didn't "want that s**t in his body."

In Chapter 12, entitled "Frankie's Breaking Point," Walsh informs readers that Frankie finally "cracked" in 1999 and used illegal PEDs to help Armstrong in his bid to win the TDF. Walsh wrote that in the aftermath of the 1998 Festina doping scandal, Frankie "thought things would change," and that he "hoped" through the winter of 1998 that the sport would, as Jean-Marie LeBlanc said, gain a "new morality." Alas, the new morality for which we are told Frankie had wished all winter long did not materialize, and in the early part of 1999 he came to realize "that nothing had, in fact, changed."

Frankie said that he was "tired of having no chance, tired of getting dropped, tired of seeing others taking advantage of [him]." So, in the build up to the 1999 TDF he finally broke down and drove to Switzerland to buy EPO with the intention of using it. However, being much like a newborn baby in the woods, Frankie had no idea how to properly use the "morally bankrupting" elixir:


Fortunately -- or not, depending how you look at this -- Frankie received to advice he needed to dope and would find himself "feeling normal again." And he would regain his proper "place in the peloton" and help Armstrong succeed at winning the most demanding bicycle race in the world in July 1999. However, Frankie, we find out, didn't quite make it out of the woods unscathed.

Shortly after the 1999 Tour de France, Betsy, we learn from Walsh, first discovered that Frankie had "cracked" and succumbed to the dark-side -- she found the remnants of the EPO he used to help gain a spot on the USPS 1999 TDF team, and Betsy was none too happy about her discovery. She implored him to get away from Lance and his team, "get off the USPS team. Just get off it." Frankie tried to reassure Betsy by telling her that he only did the "bare minimum" of dope to help Lance. But she demands that he never venture into the dark-side again, and Frankie calms her nerves, much like he did, I imagine, back on that fall day in a Texas' hospital hallway in 1996, by promising he'll never do that "s**t" again.

But wait! "What of the villain," you might be thinking. Oh right, the villain.
*que Darth Vader breathing sound effect*

It's clear who the villain is in Betsy's eyes, as New York Times' reporter Juliet Macur shares her opinion on the matter in September of 2006, "[Betsy Andreu] blames Armstrong for what she said was pressure on teammates to use drugs. Her husband, she said, 'didn’t use EPO for himself, because as a domestique, he was never going to win that race.'"

In an August, 2008 interview with nyvelocity.com, Frankie backs up the "Betsy finding his left over EPO after the 1999 TDF" story, he confirms that he took EPO in 1999 for a "few races":

Frankie was then asked about his knowledge about using EPO in 1999:

And that was pretty much the Andreu's story: Frankie swore to his wife in October of 1996 [and pretty much to all those who read Walsh's book] that he wasn't doping and hadn't doped; although unsure, at first, of how to properly dope, he did dope in 1999 in order to help Armstrong win the 1999 TDF; Betsy first learned of Frankie's doping after the 1999 TDF, when she found his unused portion of EPO in a thermos in a refrigerator in their Nice apartment. Betsy would say, or at least strongly hint, that her husband was pressured by Lance to dope in 1999 in order to support his attempt to win the TDF. And up till at least the summer of 2008, Frankie was ok with that narrative -- or I've found nothing of him challenging or contradicting that narrative before 2012.

THE ANDREU'S STORY & THE DATING GAME II

The Andreu's story seemed pretty consistent. Frankie did EPO (the "bare minimum") only to help Armstrong win the 1999 TDF. After all, as Betty said, it wasn't as if Frankie was going to win. So it makes sense that Frankie would only use PEDs to help Armstrong win, right? Wrong. The truth is, or at least what Frankie sworn to in an affidavit in late 2012, Frankie first bought EPO in 1996, not 1999. So, when Frankie swore to is bride-to-be in 1996 that he wasn't on that "s***t" he was lying. Oops. Unless, he traveled with Kevin Livingston to Switzerland after October, 1996.


But surely, he did it only to help Armstrong win, right? Wrong. Frankie, in 2012, admits that he used EPO in 1998 to prepare for the TDF. Armstrong wasn't scheduled to ride the TDF in 1998, it was considered too soon for him and would be better for him to race the Tour of Spain. So, if Frankie was only using EPO to help Lance, as Bety said, and if Lance wasn't riding the 1998 TDF, why would Frankie use EPO to prepare for the TDF? Maybe -- and I'm just taking a shot in the dark here -- Frankie used EPO for his (gasp) own benefit. Shocking, isn't it?


You know, come to think if it, Frankie saying he used EPO in 1996 kinda makes that story Walsh told of him using EPO in to prepare for the 1999 TDF a lil silly, huh? Why was Frankie so concerned about how to use EPO in 1999, when he had been using the "s**t" since 1996?! When he was asked in 2008 interview about him worring about is blood turning to sludge in 1999 becasue of his use of EPO, why didn't he explain that he was pretty comfortable with using EPO in 1999 because he had been using it since 1996?

But what of Betsy? Certainly, she was surprised, as I'm sure we all were, to learn that Frankie had been doing that "s**t" since 1996. Right? Sure we've heard the stories of how Armstrong and his teammates talked openly their dopining. It makes sense that Frankie was able to keep his doping a secret from Betsy until the she found his EPO after the 1999 TDF. Almost a full three years Frankie managed to keep Betsy from finding out his dirty little secret. How did he do it? He lied. Or maybe, just maybe they're both lying now about when she found out? And if so, doesn't that make her "Frankie only did EPO to help Lance" story in printed in the NY Times in 2006 a lil ridiculous?

Commodus

Oh c'mon lifer, if you'd like to debate the matter do so. You don't have to hide behind not-so-subtle swipes eh? Well, unless your argument is full of crap and that's all you have...

Commodus

Well this is certainly an impressive response. My feeling is that there is nothing really here that can't be easily explained as a matter of context, but I will take some time to read it more carefully before formulating a response.

bigfred 

Let's see if I have this straight:

Eddy Merckx uses what ever is available to him at the time to brake the rules, cheat, dope and bully his way to more victories than any other cyclist, ever! He dominates seasons from beginning to end, winning just about everything multiple times and leaving very little in prize money for the rest. He's strong for the entire season with less indication of peaks and troughs than we would expect. And, that's o.k., 'cause it is claimed that his dope wasn't as effective as modern doping is.

Lance, use what ever is available to him at the time to brake the rules, cheat, dope and bully his way to 7 TDF wins and a handful of other titles. This is deserving of scorn and eternal damnation, 'cause his doping was too effective and he wasn't nice to be people who were interested in black mailing him for money, spots on the team, etc.

Is it completely lost on some of you that Eddy Merckx continues to be one of the more vocal critics of what has been done to Lance and who contiues to ask that we move on?

He (Eddy) is a still active part of the establishment within cycling;-)

Commodus

It is not claimed, it's simply true. Take all the dope away, and Eddy still wins. Take all the dope away from Lance, and he's probably a pretty damned good classics rider. He probably never wins a Tour. That's a big difference...pretending otherwise takes an act of faith.

Commodus

Although if EPO had been around for Eddy, I have little doubt that he would have taken it.

Bacciagalupe

Everyone who was involved in cycling in the 90s either hid their doping, declined to admit it, or outright lied about it.

No one who actually knows what was going on meets the unattainable standard of moral purity you unreasonably demand. George Washington was not a soigneur for USPS.

So yes, Frankie doped. He lied to his wife about it several times. Maybe he was conflicted, maybe not. Maybe he did it for himself, maybe for the team, maybe both.

No one gives a damn. You know why? Because what Frankie did in the 90s doesn't change a few key facts:

1) Armstrong doped for most, if not nearly all, of his career.
2) Armstrong organized doping on his teams, including pressuring teammates.
3) Armstrong viciously attacked everyone who told the truth.
4) What makes him unique is not that he doped. It was the immense riches he reaped from his doping and his lies, and the constant reflexive attacks on innocent people who told the truth about his doping.
5) The evidence against Armstrong was solid enough to wring a confession out of him.

Armstrong is a vicious, manipulative, litigious bully who has zero credibility. You're defending a guy who no longer bothers to defend his actions. Even if you utterly refuse to believe the Andreus, nothing about that changes.

Cat4Lifer

I see. So, seeking to find out the whole truth is really just a defense of Armstrong. And pointing out that witnesses against Armstrong, like Frankie, lied again and again and help maintained that lie for years is not worth mentioning, because because Armstrong was/is such an ass.

I just don't agree. And I sure as **** don't buy that Frankie managed to keep his doping hidden from Betsy for three years.

calamarichris

The blind allegiance, the relentless attacking of any naysayers, the teams of lawyers, the hilariously brazen lies...
I've lost track of the discussion; is this the Armstrong Cult or Scientology?

Commodus

What, no one caught the latest?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lanc...sive-interview

Cat4Lifer

Exactly which teammates did Armstrong "pressure" to dope?
I'm pretty sure I'll get a "read the report" reply. I have, and I've also read several affidavits.
The only teammate I've read say that he felt Armstrong pressure him to dope was Christian Vande Velde.
And CVV's affidavit doesn't so much paint a picture of a "clean" rider turned "dirty" by Armstrong's pressuring.
IMO it paints a picture of a doper being told by Armstrong to dope more consistently and effectively.
So the idea that these guys wouldn't have doped, but for Armstrong, seems rooted in a blind hate than in anything the record reflects. But I'm always amenable to the truth. So, anyone information that indicates Armstrong pressured a "clean" rider to dope, please direct me to it or supply a link.

damme

Livestrong was just shield for his cheating and doping programs. It will be a very good day when this sociopath is put into prison.

trescojones

when i think of the entire festina team being caught with a bus full of EPO,of Breukink and Riis running teams that have come up with dopers, I cant help but think that this kind of thing isn't just an Armstrong attribute and that percieving it that way serves to let others off the hook and condemn tomorrows riders to similar fates. Its even plausible that Armstrong himself might have had less choice than is thought, corporate backing may even demand such things under the table to return their investment. What does appear obvious is that doping seems somewhat endemic and always gets played down as the individual choice of errant riders.
Also, Armstrong is an english speaking foreigner, and all such tdf winners until Evans:Lemond,Roche,have been accused of bad sportsmanship or equipment cheating. When Allan Pieper won his first pro race in Belgium he said the pro officialdom that handed out the prizes treated him as a weed amongst the flowers. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but some of the vehemence seems out of proportion when the other riders who also cheated to win seem to be regarded more as prodigal sons who made a mistake.

squatchy

So I just ran across this on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eddy-Merckx-...21060076217%26

I guess he'll need more PED's so he can run from all the new pending lawsuits LOL

marqueemoon

I doubt that bike was ever Lance's personal property.

Probably as good a time as ever to sell something like that really.

bikerjp

Shouldn't there be deep discounts to get stuck with LA's bike? I think you'd do better not pushing that fact.

jkuper

"This bike allegedly is Lance Armstrong's spare bike from the World Championships in Norway in 1993. It was not ridden during the race but was his spare bike for the race. I do not have any paperwork to confirm it but it has an original race number attached to the bike and #208 was his number."

hsh101

I love how you can get a 15% discount on compression socks, if you combine it with the bike order...

rangerdavid

not Lance's bike. He never rode a size 57

halfspeed

His Treks were 58cm square. His Merckx were 57ST, 58TT.

OrionKhan

More importantly. This bickering over Lance is good for one thing. This thread has more replies on it than any other thread on the Professional Cycling For the Fans board. And it's second in views to one of the TdF stage threads. Keep up the good work guys.


My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
Started by Uni-Vibe, 11-29-09 01:46 PM

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Poll: Landis drops EPO bomb on modern Pro Cycling. Lance is in the bullseye
Started by TimeRacer, 05-19-10 10:37 PM

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Replies: 939
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Nachoman

Is there evidence that Christian Vande Velde continued doping AFTER he left Lance's team? That would cast some doubt on his allegation that he was pressured into it by Lance.

Cat4Lifer

Yes. He says in paragraph 134 that he used EPO and hGH in 2004 on Liberty Seguros, ran by Manolo Saiz. Also, in paragraph 61 CVV says he "approached Dr. del Moral about putting together a 'program' to improve [his] cycling performance." He then goes on to say that "program" was a euphemism for doping.

trekker pete

Huh?

What do you base this on? Was Eddy soooooo much better than the rest of the field that he could have rode clean and still won?

Who is to say that the same does not apply to Lance?

Were his drugs better than every one else's? Did his body magically react differently from the rest?

Does it not stand to reason that if he was the best with them, he might also be best without them, since, apparently, pretty much all the top riders were using.

It seems to me that there really is no way to figure out much after the fact who took what and if they received greater benefit than the rest. And if we are going to start yanking titles, how can it be done fairly when there is no way of telling who took what when.

Are there any recent champs who are clean or is it a simple fact that the advantages of today's PEDs are enough that it is impossible to win without them.

One other thing. If it has been a simple fact that riding PED free meant zero chance of being competitive, can you really blame any of them?