Juan Foote

So, where would a person who is obviously deluded with the PR version of who Lance is find out all these "facts" and "bad things" that he has done to offset the fact that he has won the TdF more times than anyone else and deserve such ire from fellow cyclists?

embankmentlb

I will look for the Lance movie in the fiction section.

Commodus

Well I'd be the last to hold up Bicycling as a source of credible journalism...usually. But this article: https://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cy...trongs-endgame

is, I think, a pretty good summary.

Of course I have to ask, why ask? If you're a fan of pro cycling you know all this. If you aren't...well, why ask? Why do you care?

ravenmore

^^^ that was a good article. I read it a while back.

tagaproject6

fify

LemondFanForeve

We have a winner.,....

LemondFanForeve

Huh? So, we should just accept cheating, since it's the norm, and since so many presidents 'cheat", it's ok?

LemondFanForeve

No question, I dont "hate" Lance, I just think he's a huge fraud/phoney and eventually, it'll come out. IMO, that will then wipe out any positives, or anything he's done in the cycling world, as I just cant support a cheater, liar, fraud and so forth. He's duped ALOT of folks over the years. On the surface? Great Cyclist, but how great is/was he if he's found to have cheated to win? that doesnt make him great, that makes him a cheater amongst other things. There was a time when I liked Lance, and thought he was great. But, after awhile, the mounting evidence/word of mouth/info surrounding his legitimacy & his attitudetowards Lemond, began to make me change my opinion of him. His constant "I didnt dope, I rest my case" BS he kept spewing, week after week, didnt help his case either.

Also, has NOTHING to do w/whether or not, you and I had a chance to ride in the TDF. If I did, I certainly wouldnt cheat to win, maybe others would? But, using an excuse like "oh well there's not anyone here who's good enough to ride in the TDF", is a pointless/nonsensical arguement. of course there isn't, but what does that have to do with the topic/subject @ hand? nothing. His teammates, and others have said things about him, dont you think that's really alot more "proof" than what he claims? I mean, these people are there to help him win, it's their job to do so. Jealousy, might play a role sure, but, there's also the matter of ALOT of them are telling the truth, and he's tried denying it for years. It seems to be finally catching up to him, he cant hide behind lawyers anymore, when the triuth comes out.

LemondFanForeve

BUT< the problem is "Everyone" wasnt doping....only a handful of top riders were.

LemondFanForeve

Homebrew01

Yes, I meant to make that point too. Cheating takes away from all the non-cheaters who either missed a chance to win, or never even made the team.

ravenmore

alrighty then. You do realize the ahem, 'huge phoney', beat the living tar out of the doped competition 7 years in a row after having tumors cut from his lungs and brain.

LemondFanForeve

Surely, but he too "doped", so he "beat the living tar" out of other dopers, beside himself?

Easy with the name calling, I didnt call you anything of that nature, did I? cant you have a discussion w/o the name calling? your question/point/opinion was answered with one from me, and others. No need to get hostile, and resort to name calling, b/c YOU dont agree with what we have to say? Feel free to look up anything Ive said about Lance...Im sure it's all out there for everyone to see.

I didnt cause Lance to be labeled those names i called him, did I? no, HE did. HE caused himself(by his actions), to be labeled those things and others. Lets try to continue having a decent discussion, w/o resorting to calling each other names? You're better than that.

LemondFanForeve

Exactly! It takes away any credibility to legit riders, who dont dope, which is a real shame. I'd be willing to put money on, that there were others riders NOT named Armstrong, who were every bit as capable of winning the tour clean, if given the chance? Im sure some will say"well, theyve been given the chance, and they didnt win". Really? they were given the chance to go against other "legitimate riders who didnt dope" and were clean, to win? Dont think so. Now, EVERYONE'S a suspect for EPO's/Dope....EVERYONE'S questioned, 'clean" or not. Thats what it's come to, not fair for other riders to be that way. If you worked your ass off, and were clean to race in the TDF, and you won it, wouldnt you be upset, if they questioned your every move, and your 'win"? of course. Youd be all upset if someone questioned the validity/legitimacy of your win, we all would if put into that situation. Its a shame, so many selfish riders have let it come to that though.

LemondFanForeve

By the way, the "no question" part was me agreeing with you, that they were both great cyclists.

Nachoman

I'll save my money and wait for it to come out on HBO.

Right Said Fred

How can you say that with any certainty? They are only as clean as Lance is in the eyes of the UCI because none of them tested positive. Conversely, if Lance's clean testing record doesn't prove his innocence, then it doesn't prove anyone else's either. Accusations and hearsay, no matter how credible some people may believe the source is, does not prove guilt.

ravenmore

Good point. Technically Lance hasn't been proven to have doped or cheated.... yet. And where in the heck has anyone ever accused him of embezzling from Livestrong?

X-LinkedRider

I don't where you got that EVERYBODY dopes simply because the larger part of the field does. Why are all of us so concerened with wht is RIGHT and WRONG according to somebody elses rules? EPOs weren't on the banned susbatnce list until the 90's. Which basically means everybody that we consider great at one time could have used EPO but we just don't know. But you are correct, not everybody is doping, but it is certainly more than a 'handfull'. This issue has gone WAY BEYOND what is right or wrong and has settled down into Who was most talented and proved it?
Anti Doping discussions should really be geared towards how to minimize cheating like in every other sport. Accusing or defending somebody years after the fact is kind of a waste of time. (Even though I wasted my time defending him) Even if Lance were rotting in the jail the rest of his like, you can't take away the fact he crossed those finish lines first. You can take away his medals/trophy's, cups or any other reward. But the history will always have him crossing that finish line first on every race he has ever won. Nobody sitting in 2nd place would feel legitimately like a winner even if they stripped him of everything. From a fan standpoint, which is apparently much different than the, I know everything about every pro standpoint we see in here, you ave to recognize greatness and dominance when it is there, Whether it Be Lance, Greg, eddy, mike Tyson, Jon Jones, Pele, or Michael Jordan. It doesn't matter if any or all of these guys are found to be cheaters, you can't remove all of the great things they have done. That's just the way it is.

Juan Foote

This.

Everyone has the guy guilty before anything has been proven beyond hearsay. The main culprit in the accusations is a known ******bag who is trying to levy his guilt by the accusations of other great names in the sport. This guy (Landis) has created a witch hunt and his purpose was for nothing more than to save his own neck. The other accusations come from labs who are proven to have handled materials incorrectly, as well as being based in a country that would love nothing more than to see this certain person's reputation tarnished...France. There is nothing at this point credible or real enough for (Armstrong) to have been punished, banned, etc. with or for. Until such time, I personally will hold him up with the regard that I think an American 7 time tour winner deserves. Haters will hate.

Commodus

lol. I guess that's the rub. Some of us care, and some don't.

You have some people who are fans of pro cycling and get a bit annoyed when a guy comes along and ****s all over it. And then you have others who are just a fan of 'celebrity' and wander around defending people who get on TV a lot.

X-LinkedRider

It is possibile to like him as a rider you know. So now you're mad at Lance or the undeserving fan.

Commodus

LOL! I'm not mad at anyone I promise. BF is not the place I come to for intelligent conversation regarding pro cycling, believe me. And I got over my disappointment regarding Lance's misdeeds years ago. You know, when all this came out.

I was a big fan. I still would be if he would just man up and tell the truth: "yeah, I doped. My career was finished because of the time away spent fighting cancer, I had to do something to come back. Everyone else doped, I just doped better and more specifically."

ravenmore

I don't know that Lance could afford to 'man up' to it now and admit he doped if he did. It would have a huge negative impact on Livestrong and it's ability to help cancer victims. Unfortunately the fall out would extend beyond his own reputation and legal issues now.

Commodus

Very good point. He's pretty well backed into a corner now I guess. My post was just from my own personal point of view.