Campag4life

Almost a wash cost wise. The insert molded alloy sleeve for both is close to the same cost. BB30 sans thread has greater complexity. Groove undercuts with circlips. Higher precision bores for measured interference fit versus a rolled or cut thread. As it turns out the real benefit of BB30 aside from stiffness and reduced weight of a thinner wall larger dia. spindle is reduced bearing drag. How so? Bearing bore centers with BB30 are more aligned than afforded with a BSA thread. Of course if Loctite isn't used, BB30 is more problematic but quite a simple and nice BB design with simple practices using Loctite. PF30 is a bit more challenging as it turns out...mostly due to tolerance difference and bore alignment mismatch....loimpact being the poster boy who fell off the apple cart because he never answered my question. Oh well...lol.

DoubleTap

Thanks for the offer. I can't find a link to the exact year model of my frame, but here's a link to the current model. It looks identical except color. My frameset was purchased in June 2014 and built up. I'm not sure if it's a 2013 or 2014 model, but my best guess is a 2013 frameset.

Fluidity - Endurance carbon fiber road bike made for comfort. - TIME Sport USA

Campag4life

You have BB30. Here is the video for installation put out by the company itself if you wonder how it is installed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eory8iw2BqU

Btw, there are work arounds for cheaper tooling to install/uninstall it.

Installation of your Ultegra Crank...same as it would be for a std threaded external bearing BB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BP3-XGWWqc


OK...troubleshoot your creaking. Unless your chain rings are loose..be sure to check the chain ring bolts...and your creak isn't elsewhere which is a common misdiagnosis...and the creak is really coming for the BB...there are three potential root causes:

1. Insufficient Praxis BB torque. Using a torque wrench or a calibrated arm with Shimano BB spanner make sure you tighten the Praxis BB to torque spec. If the shell is loose, it will creak.

2. Insufficient anti seize when its installed. With a metal on metal interface, you need anti seize between the interfaces of the sleeve and BB30...and then torque the sleeve to spec. If you do this, it almost can't creak...Praxis is a great design FWIW.

3. Insufficent crank bearing preload. You have too much axial lash in your crank spindle. Watch the video and learn about adjusting bearing preload with the little serrated hand finger wheel. If you adhere to these steps, the bearings will have a light preload and the inner race won't rattle against the balls and the crank spindle shoulders.

Hope that makes sense.

DoubleTap

It does, thank you. I watched the videos and will attempt this in a couple days when I have time. Is it possible that the rainy ride washed out the anti-seize and that's why it began creaking? I'm just wondering if this is going to be a regular maintenance item for me when I'm consistently riding in wet conditions.

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to trying these steps and seeing how it works.

series1811

The BB30 on my Supersix EVO began making a clicking noise every rotation of the crank when it has just 200 miles on it. I took it back to the shop. They said it isn't uncommon for the bearings to have inadequate/improperly placed grease. They redid them, and I have been blissfully quiet for the past 2,000 miles.

LAJ

Of course none of this applies to me, simply because neither my BB30 nor my PF30 creak. Then I decided to read this thread, as @Campag4life shares good info. I road my BB30 bike on Sunday, and I have isolated a creak to the BB. Loctite Green is on its way.

Thank you all for the informative thread.

Campag4life

Nope...water won't necessary wash out anti seize. Maybe even a coincidence. If you follow the steps I suggest, you will be fine. Before you remove the shell...simply tighten up the cups a bit per the video...you need two Shimano spanners for this.
Then loosen both left crank arm pinch bolts, use the little black plastic wheel...finger tighen preload and retorque the pinch bolts to torque spec.
Good chance that will take care of any creak without removing the BB shell from the bike which is more work. If it still creaks after that, remove the shell...clean...reapply antiseize to all mating surfaces and reinstall. Either way you will solve it for little money and a bit of time. Price you pay to have a bike shop work on it and do an inferior job, you can buy some tools...again you don't need all the fancy tools shown...can use a large C clamp...couple of blocks of wood...a wood down to tap it out...stuff like that.

xscottypx

simple, the bottom barrel on the CF bike will not fit a new sleeve. i took it to one of the better shops in the area, who even consulted another one of the shops. the shop guy tried to gently hand sand the bottom bracket to attempt to make it fit, but the inconsistencies in the bottom bracket did not allow it. he said the only other step was to bore it out a bit. but i am sure you know more than them? right? no, you do not. so chill.

of course as long as bb30 is made, and pushed, every LBS will get behind it as 99% of the bikes they may carry have it. can't knock your product line, right? they all said it was ok but had loads of issues they dealt with. no offense i trust the people i know here over someone on the internets. and since mine has been pretty ****e in less than a year, i am going to side with them.

Campag4life

I don't know a little more than them...I have forgotten more than they ever know.
You don't know who to believe because you have no knowledge base to draw from. It takes some level of talent to see it in others as it turns out...no doubt a concept that won't resonate with you. You better stick with your bike shop....a veritable brain trust.

xscottypx

ok? so i used two of the best shops and along with others that work at shops, all basically agreed. go on talking in circles though. i will stick with my shops, they know what they are doing.

loimpact

Well, my apologies. I fully expected to cut & paste where I answered but I honestly don't see it.

Long story short.....yes, I did install cranks right after bearing press, though it took a good 5 minutes between pressing both sides because after the first side, I then realized that I hadn't prepared for the other side being longer...only slightly but enough so I had to disassemble my press, find a thin washer to use to compensate and get it all back together with my barely-enough 5" bolt. (as a reminder, I had to make some homemade plywood drifts which ate up about a full inch of the extra I had before)

Then.....once I realized the dust seals were binding, I immediately went to work disassembling my cranks again and not wanting to disturb the bearing/cup stack too much, I delicately removed (the last little bit always leaves me wanting for a 3rd hand) the seals, more grease, then reassembled. All said probably 15 to 20 minutes transpired before I was done, done.

Cranks are still quiet & smooth so definitely a happy camper right now.

Campag4life

Understand...first time around with Loctite with home made tools can cause that scenario. You seem like a throughtful guy and good you installed the crank right away. As it turns out...the centering of bearing bores while the Loctite sets is a combo of both installing the spindle thru the bores AND tightening down the preload or in your case the wave washer. Mechanical preload cranks are even better...like Ultegra/DA because you can over tighten the preload a tad to further promote bore alignment...this better squares up the inner races....but pushing the spindle through the bearing inner races is the biggest contributor to bore alignment.

Since you are a happy camper, maybe your sense of spindle drag you noted earlier is dwindling. If not, you can perform the drill I suggested of removing the wave washer, lightly reinstalling the left crank arm and spinning the crank...best without the chain on...drop it to the inside briefly. This will give you a truer sense of how well the bearing bores are aligned. A further tip is you can start over. Yes you can...in fact repeatedly. If you feel you have refined your home made press procedure in your mind, then you can take a wood dowel and knock the Wheel Mfg cups out laterally thru opposite bearing bores and start again. As discussed your BB shell with have a very very thin layer of hardened Loctite as a skin over the ID of the carbon and then you can re-Loctite it back in place. You can clean up any residual Loctite on the OD of the Wheel Mfg cups with acetone if you wish...or not. Practice as it turns out make perfect. If you want best case, a further tip. Obtain a 5-10mm spacer and install it in place of the wave washer for the Loctite to set up. This way you can dial in too much preload as the Loctite dries. Why do this?...create a no build high preload on the bearings by torquing the left crank arm center bolt well over hand tight...but say less than 30 in-lbs or so? Greater preload helps align the bearing bore centers while the Loctite dries. Both squareness of the inner race outer edges and the spindle thru the bores promotes best possible bearing/cup alignment within the carbon BB shell of the bike.
Then on the next morrning, remove the extra spacer creating artificially high preload and properly install the wave washer. Preceding ensures best possible bearing bore alignment.
Hope that helps and enjoy your quiet bike.

Campag4life

If you want some solid advice and are truly inquisitive about the advice you have gotten from both corroborating bike shops...then do the following. Take the year and model frameset you have...and draft a short email to Praxis and tell them what year, model and BB type you have and whether their collet sleeve BB solution can be installed on your bike. Take your question to the manufacturer of the sleeve. Then you will know if its viable or not. There may in fact be a workaround if your BB type is an outlier to others that mount simply to the Praxis system.

Or in addition, you can post here what year, model and BB type you have. Maybe we can determine what particular anomalies apply to your BB that make it incompatible with the Praxis sleeve. The reason why what you write is questionable is because BB's like BB30 are predicated on an industry standard. The geometry must conform to a given mating environment which is uniform or it would not follow a given BB type like BB30.

If you provide more information, this maybe discernible.

rpenmanparker 

Campag4life, please forgive me if this is redundant, but so much has gone on here, I have lost track of all the points previously made. If I were to install a Wheels Manufacturing PF30 bottom bracket, do I use Lotite 609? On the cup-to-shell interface only? Or also on the cartridge-to-cup interface? It seems to me like the cartridge-to-cup interface is very similar to the same interface in outboard threaded cups for a BSA shell. I have never heard of creaking in that setup, so I'm thinking nothing is needed there, but only on the cup-to-shell interface. And IIRC, you mentioned not trying to remove the cartridges from the shell for replacement. So I am assuming those should just be left alone. Your confirmation will be appreciated.

Campag4life

Hi Robert,
Sorry but your nomenclature aka naming convention of parts is a bit confusing. Perhaps you could better define what is a 'cartridge'. So sorry, but I believe your question is a bit obtuse or irrelevant. If what you mean by 'cartridge' is bearing subassembly...Robert the bearing subassembly is captured/swedged into the larger diameter cups. The bearings can't creak or be removed unless you cut them out. You seem a bit fixated on this concept as you have asked several times before. There are no cartridges Robert. As you continuously ask...the bearings are NOT serviceable...they are not removable as a 'cartridge'. When the bearings wear out, you pound out the Wheel Mfg Cup/captured bearings...two halves...one on each side and throw them away and replace.

The whole benefit and crux of discussion in the last part of this thread whereby the theme is how to tame PF30 and make it not creak is..instead of two interfaces...aka one of which is loose cartridge bearings pressed into cups...there is only one interface to worry about...and that is the O.D. of the cup to the I.D. of the 46mm virgin carbon shell hole. Going from two control surfaces down to one dramatically improves reliability...perhaps by over 50% because bearing to cup interfaces are tricky because of the narrow width of a BB30 bearing. Smart companies have decided the best solution is to integrate bearings into cups to remove the reliability problem of bearings creaking within cups. Therefore a single bead of Loctite 609 is placed around the O.D. of the cup on a Wheel Mfg solution and then side...one cup pers side is pressed into the frame. Pretty simple and effective design that typically resolves any creaking issue with PF30 and effective for Cervelo bikes as well which use wide shell PF30 known as BBright.
HTH

rpenmanparker 

Okay, so I guess I misunderstood. This is very confusing to me at least, especially since "bearing cartridge" is a pretty standard terminology. So if I now understand you correctly, you are saying that these aren't sealed bearing cartridges (as pictured below) identical to the ones used for BB30 and PF30 but swaged into aluminum cups instead of plastic ones as in PF30. You are saying the loose balls or balls in clips are installed directly into the aluminum cups. That would be different than the situation with aluminum outboard cups for threaded BSA bottom brackets. The bearing cartridges can be easily removed from the threaded cups and replaced in that case. Here is a video showing how it is done:


Why would the aluminum cups that are pressed into a PF30 bottom bracket be loaded with bearings any differently? If you look at this picture of the Wheels Manufacturing PF30 BB, you can see the bearing cartridge quite distinctly inside the red cup.



I just don't understand what you mean by there is no cartridge. I can see it quite plainly from the front edge at the outside of the BB shell to the back edge against the shoulder in the red cup, especially when enlarging the image. The cartridge walls are silver colored while the cups are red. The difference is very distinct.

Campag4life

Speechless Robert. I am pretty astounded by your lack of grasp...and this applies to previous exchanges on the same topic.
Believe its time to let somebody else type for a while. Honestly I am weary of explaining it.
Good luck

rpenmanparker 

C'mon man, I'm working with you here in order to gain a proper understanding. Put downs aren't in order. I'm saying the picture of the brand and model of aluminum cup bottom bracket for PF30 shells you referenced as having some sort of "captured" bearings, clearly shows that it has a classic sealed bearing cartridge installed, just like the ones used against circlips as BB30 bottom brackets and installed in traditional plastic PF30 bottom bracket cups. Can you show me a photo that illustrates what you are talking about?

Just for clarity here is a Wheels Manufacturing diagram of all the parts of their aluminum bottom bracket assemblies. Note the standard sealed bearing cartridges:

Campag4life

First I wasn't dissing you...I just wasn't getting through and I am mostly to blame as it turns out. I thought you meant Praxis PF30 and not Wheel Mfg. I believe Wheel Mfg PF30 BB's are serviceable...bearings can be pushed in and out. But for Praxis, although technically it can be done, it voids their warranty...in other words, they don't support it. I wasn't clear on the capture issue and again my bad. Aluminum changes the landscape when it comes to bearing retention as it turns out. The big issue with std PF30 is the usage of Delrin bushings. Delrin , in spite of its ubiquity for many years in the context of PF30...just hasn't demonstrated to be a reliable bushing material to support BB30 cartridge bearings...or at least they have a tendency to creak because Loctite doesn't adhere very well to Delrin...which tends to be almost waxy or lubrice in nature. In fact this goes full circle back to loimpact if you read his posts. He developed a successful bond between his BB30 bearings and PF30 Alloy bushings. In essence, this is pretty comparable to what is shown below...the Wheel Mfg PF30 solution. Just went to their website and they say the bearings are serviceable so again, my bad. Yes the bearings can changed for Wheel Mfg PF30 shown above so you are correct. I suppose the issue is, what practice is suggested how to change them and that would be a good question to write to them about...because retaining the half cups when extracting the bearings isn't as easy as say BB30 where the alloy cups are in effect integrated into the frame and 'captured' by the BB carbon shell. It maybe as simple as drilling a 43mm hole in a block of wood and knocking the 42mm OD BB30 bearings out from the backside. Haven't done it...but probably what I would try. Easy...if I could create a 43mm hole...which could be accomplished with a sable saw if the right hole saw isn't available. Figure the flange on the PF30 pictured above is about 48-50mm or so....the OD of the cup is 46mm. So that would likely be effective to knock the bearings. Sorry for the confusion. My mistake...was mixing Praxis with Wheel Mfg.

scott967

WM sells an extractor to remove 6806 sealed cartridge bearings from their PF30 cups:
Wheels Manufacturing 6806 Bearing Extractor
Actually this is probably a good deal, as the only tool I've seen before for this was over $100.

scott s.
.

motorthings

nice find!

When my 5 year warranty on my Chris King PF30 BB is up, I can just use one of these, instead of buying a whole new BB.

FWIW - I have about 3,000 miles on this BB, and no issues so far.

rpenmanparker 

It's all good. I hate contradictions between two respected authorities. Glad to have it straightened out. And it is good to know that about Praxis. Thanks.

Willbird

Mine did the exact same thing, and I watched them fix it, they said the bearings were not pressed all the way in, and they greased stuff up, and it now too is blissfully quiet. It was a REALLY annoying click....and only after a few weeks out the showroom door.

Bill

Campag4life

Just to let you know that 'greasing things up' is a band-aid Bill and won't last long.

Willbird

Well it is on THEM to fix it, "adjustments" are free for life, it is an hour drive to get there however.

Both mechanics are pretty cool, the one guy English is his second language, first guy asks him "have you ever heard this ?" click......click....click. First guy says "Bearings not square, make them square".

The second guy was pretty impressed that I made an Iphone video with sound of the click.

IMHO them not being pressed all the way in was the issue, hopefully :-).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYeQ...ature=youtu.be

I was afraid the thing would not do it when I got to the shop, at first on the stand it did not, but he spun the crank awile more and it started doing it again.

As a machinist my favorite way to assemble and fit things is what my dad called a "thumb press fit"...where the bushing or bearing can be shoved it with your thumb, then glue it in with the appropriate loctite. BUT some bearings as we both know are sized to work in a specified bore size, and if not careful the thumb press and loctite method might be screwing that up :-). I'm pretty decent with mechanical things and I will not be back and forth there more than a few times before I square it away myself if I have to ;-).

Delrin sounds like it has some of the properties that HDPE has that makes it difficult to glue.

I was happy they did not get freaky about me standing in the work area while they worked on it, but I did not want to get underfoot, it looked to me like the grease they added went on the crank where it fits in the bearing ID. I was glad to see somebody else take it apart first :-).

Bill