Originally Posted by Stucky

Now THAT'S a valid point. Finally [Although, just liking them as a preference is perfectly fine]



I believe that all front downtube shifters are friction; rear can be either. (Have you actually ever ridden with DTs?)



Yes, 9 (or 10 on an 11-speed)....just go "click" nine times...sheesh! That's a pretty big chunk of time in a sport where people cry over a few fractions of a second. Now you go "click!" nine times, while I go "flick" once. I'm in 11t for the descent, while you're just on 23t....see ya!



Darn! I like the color scheme on that one better than mine (red & white)!

Yeah, I like the Venge well-enough. I'd like it even better if it had DTs.

BTW: My complaint isn't "people choosing brifters"...ride what you like- even disc brakes - It's the fact that we don't have a choice today (i.e. DTs or brifters)- and soon, that may be the case with brakes, too.

But I can appreciate moidern bikes- I just don't think that the features they possess make all the difference that some people credit them with.

Part of the reason I have the venge, is because I really wanted to see for myself what all the fuss was about regarding carbon frames and other modern quality components- so when I saw it on CL for a reasonable price, I snagged it. That is actually partly why I am so disappointed that one can no longer get frames with DT bosses; because aesthetically, these nice bikes can indeed spoil one- but if I want the advantages of DT shifters....I am forced to buy 20+ year-old bikes.... I find it sad that a superior technology gets buried- is no longer even an option, just because some marketers pushed for change for change's sake; and that they pushed it so hard, that half the people alive today don't seem to remember that that is what the whole world rode for half a century.

Darn! I like that color scheme! Here's mine, from the "Pics Of Your Bike Near Water" thread:

Originally Posted by colnago62

I think if you paid 6 grand for a 20 pound bike, you got punked ;-)

Originally Posted by sleepy

I'm just irritated at the likelihood of switching to disc brakes. New standards, rotor rubbing [and bug off with that "proper maintenance" garbage. My idea of maintenance is squirting lube on a chain, why make it harder?], and fugly shifters-not to mention cost. Or electric crap. There's something nice about cable actuated shifting. Something about being able to fiddle with and not worrying about charging up like a phone.

Originally Posted by svtmike

Stucky, looking at your bike -- you ride a much smaller frame than I do. I typically ride a 61 in Specialized bikes. As frames get larger, the downtube gets farther away from the rider; our longer arms don't make up the distance. So what may be an easy hand movement for you is a shoulder dip for me.

Originally Posted by Salubrious

I don't think you understand- but you could just be pimping me I had the frame built up custom to my build and specs and then equipped it with the hardware to meet my riding. There is a lot lot more to riding a bike than just racing! When I go to the studio for band practice that's a 22 mile round trip- a racing machine is not the bike to do that with- where do you put your stuff?? Can you go camping on your carbon racer? Likely not- it lacks the geometry to allow you to carry weight safely and probably has no provisions to allow you to carry stuff anyway.

So its heavier than one would expect- but keep in mind that includes the Rohloff hub, which is a bit heavier than most road gearsets (but makes up for it with a 526% range and much greater reliability; derailluers really do suck by comparison). If you don't have MTB gears at the Dairyland Dare you are in for a struggle...

The flip side of course is that the bike I got is also very flexible in terms of what sort of riding I can do- it has wide clearances to allow for wider tires (although right now I am riding on 28mm clinchers which are a good all-around size for just beating about). Again though, no doubt carbon fiber is lighter, but it is also more fragile. Many frame makers I know do a lively business repairing carbon frames. This is what I meant by 'it will still be around 20 years from now'. Likely it will be about decades after that. Unlike most carbon machines, its a classic even though its relatively new.

Originally Posted by Stucky

On those we can agree! I love the simplicity of cycling. I mean, if I wanted every possible technological advantage, I'd just buy a motorcycle. Adding all that complexity to a bicycle, to the point where it's becoming virtually a motorcycle sans engine, is just ridiculous- especially the disc brakes- for a vehicle that spends most of it's time going 20MPH; if that. Making the bike as "transparent" as practical; having just enough to do what you need it to do, while keeping the interface between us and the road as light and simple as possible, is, IMO, the pinnacle of cycling. The more crap they put between us and the road; or between us and the simple control of our machine...the more they are destroying the essential aesthetics of the sport.



That's an interesting point. I had always assumed that things would remain proportional for larger riders on larger frames. (My bike is a 54cm- I'm 5'10")- But then again...when I was a kid, riding bikes which were too big for me, I never remember it being a problem. I think it's just a matter of what we get used to. Who even used to think about it? It always seemed to me, that the DTs were in a very natural place. Personally, when riding in the drops, I find it a lot more natural/easier, to reach down to the top tube, than to move my hand up to work the brifter levers. I actually avoid shifting when in the drops (with brifters) because the motion is so unnatural.

I wonder how many people actually race their venge? (I sure don't)

Originally Posted by Stucky

That's an interesting point. I had always assumed that things would remain proportional for larger riders on larger frames. (My bike is a 54cm- I'm 5'10")- But then again...when I was a kid, riding bikes which were too big for me, I never remember it being a problem. I think it's just a matter of what we get used to. Who even used to think about it? It always seemed to me, that the DTs were in a very natural place. Personally, when riding in the drops, I find it a lot more natural/easier, to reach down to the top tube, than to move my hand up to work the brifter levers. I actually avoid shifting when in the drops (with brifters) because the motion is so unnatural.

Originally Posted by caloso

What? Do you also avoid braking in the drops?

Originally Posted by Stucky

Well...actually... No. Reaching up a finger, and pulling the lever in, isn't so bad. But to shift, I pretty much have to put my hand on top of the brifter, to swing those levers. I like to ride in the lwoer [flat] part of the drops....and reaching with one finger, it's hard to get the needed leverage to swing the levers. Maybe I could try just keeping my thumb hooked over the bars, and using multiple fingers.... but it just seemed so much easier to quickly reach down, and flick the DT lever. And forget about the brifters when you need to make multiple swings.... Then, I just have to go up onto the hoods.

Originally Posted by colnago62

If you are happy with your purchase, that is all that matters.

Ride your bike and be happy. That is what I am going to do.

Originally Posted by Dagamon

When I had my $800 bike, I rode it about 1,000 miles a year. Now that I have my $3,000 bike, I ride it 4,000 miles a year.

Originally Posted by oldnslow2

True, the most expensive bike is the one you don't drive.

Originally Posted by topflightpro

Ah, but which is the cause and which is the effect?

Are you riding more because you spent more on your bike, or did you buy the more expensive bike after you saw your mileage grow and you felt you could justify the expense?

Originally Posted by sam_cyclist

The forum tends to attract a lot of people who are obsessed with purchasing new toys. Nothing is ever too light or too expensive for them. They can't ever reach a point where they have had enough bikes, so they buy as many as they can fit in their dwelling, then sell off a few out of guilt, then buy ever more in an endless cycle. If a shinier, newer toy is released, of course they have to buy it. Only to get bored of it a year or two later when a newer, "nicer" toy is unveiled.

You can only leave them be.

Originally Posted by bikejrff

Guilty as charged. However, I drive a 2000 Saturn with 240,000 miles,.

Originally Posted by svtmike

Sage advice. You might try it out.

Fact is, most riders don't want to have to remove a hand to shift and that one reason typically trumps anything you can say about downtube shifters. I personally love being able to shift any time I want, without having to worry if it's a wise idea to take a hand off the bars. Fact is, indexed shifting has become so reliable that the need to make very fine adjustments is relegated to the truly OCD. But you can have the best of both worlds if you want friction shifting and hands on hoods ...



The pictured version even supports your hydraulic disc brakes!

Originally Posted by Blue Belly

Exactly. Improvements I'm bicycles over the years are ever so slight. However, the difference between $2000 & $6000 is pretty substantial, getting back to the OP's first post. I'm not convinced that the difference in price with make you faster but, the crispness in shifting, smoother/lighter wheels & a frame that is designed with a racing purpose should give you a competitive edge & confidence....if you have the skillset. A good mechanic can make any decent component set shift fairly well. To be honest though, the expensive stuff usually does the job a lot better. & this is coming from a guy who is happy with down tube shifters, these days.

Originally Posted by RJM

I just can't see a really good reason for a modern race bike to have downtube shifters. They've been rendered obsolete for racing...for good reason.

Originally Posted by Lazyass

They shift crisper since the cable isn't so long with so many bends and with less housing, and you can dump gears from big cog to small and vice versa with one flick of the lever. And the derailleurs are easier to tune. And it gives the bike a cleaner look without a whole mess of cable housing running around your headtube. They may not be good reasons enough for some people, but those are good reasons. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by sam_cyclist

I haven't been impressed by the higher end bikes I've ridden.

A shop employee was selling a fancy italian carbon with c record. The bike was super light but it rode like....a bike. Nothing particularly magical or even exceptional aside from it's weight.

I also test rode a specialized roubaix ultegra 11. Ride quality was a bit harsher than I had anticipated. Also, it had a couple of nasty creaks which were quite annoying. One was in the seatpost, and the other, I believe was in the crank/bottom bracket. Disappointing.

I disagree about shift quality. Tiagra 10 shifting is top notch. I didn't notice any difference between tiagra 10 and ultegra 11. 1, 2 and 3 tooth jumps are not a big deal for shimano derailleurs.

I was very impressed by giant CF endurance frames. Great ride quality. I just didn't like the geometry/handling very much.

Originally Posted by Lazyass

They shift crisper since the cable isn't so long with so many bends and with less housing, and you can dump gears from big cog to small and vice versa with one flick of the lever. And the derailleurs are easier to tune. And it gives the bike a cleaner look without a whole mess of cable housing running around your headtube. They may not be good reasons enough for some people, but those are good reasons. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by Lazyass

They shift crisper since the cable isn't so long with so many bends and with less housing, and you can dump gears from big cog to small and vice versa with one flick of the lever. And the derailleurs are easier to tune. And it gives the bike a cleaner look without a whole mess of cable housing running around your headtube. They may not be good reasons enough for some people, but those are good reasons. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by colnago62

Electronic shifting solves much of that and Sram might have have solved the rest. Of course it requires more money, which can be a definite downside.

Originally Posted by RJM

Don't get me wrong, I do like a bike with downtube shifters...I like bikes with friction bar ends better, too....but I'm not racing on a race bike. I'm specifically talking about a modern day race bike that is built and meant to race with. The whole "convenience factor" trumps all that in a racing situation. Not having to take your hands of the brifters or bars while shifting is a huge performance advantage in a race and I can't see the DT benefits besting that.

Originally Posted by caloso

This