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Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.

Old 06-30-15, 01:58 PM
  #1  
jrobe
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Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.

Not all frames are created equal. A look deep inside the carbon in counterfeit bikes - VeloNews.com
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Old 06-30-15, 02:05 PM
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But everyone knows all brands use frames made by the same people in the same factory to the same specs.
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Old 06-30-15, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
But everyone knows all brands use frames made by the same people in the same factory to the same specs.
Either you're being sarcastic, or you didn't even read the first sentence in the first paragraph of the linked story.

EDIT: I'm banking on sarcasm.
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Old 06-30-15, 02:24 PM
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The article only proves that the framesets are not the same, but insinuates that the knock-off might kill you. Bike industry tech articles are so dumb.
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Old 06-30-15, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sced View Post
The article only proves that the framesets are not the same, but insinuates that the knock-off might kill you. Bike industry tech articles are so dumb.
I hate to break it to you, but it's not the articles that are dumb.

After reading that article, would you build up the replica frameset and do some hard mountain miles on it?
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Old 06-30-15, 02:46 PM
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Neat. All allegations that "Of course they'd say that. They're part of the same industry." aside, I'm really glad someone with resources could write this.

On the other hand, I'd love for an investigation to look at either unbranded or self-branded carbon frames (like Dengfu). I wouldn't buy a counterfeit, but I may still be interested in one of those more honest bargain bin bikes. I'd like to see what (if any) level of big-name-brand bikes they compare to.
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Old 06-30-15, 02:54 PM
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You have to admit anything sold as a counterfeit is a risk. Would I buy one, though? I might, if I felt comfortable about it. Any good product has online, independent, reviews to reference. The truth is that when working with carbon fiber, it takes no more skill to build a counterfeit than the real thing. It's the specs, the types of fabrics, the layup, the layers etc etc, that make it ride the way it does.
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Old 06-30-15, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
I hate to break it to you, but it's not the articles that are dumb.

After reading that article, would you build up the replica frameset and do some hard mountain miles on it?
Smarten up. All it says is that some guy bought some cheap frame and had some wobbles, and said cheap frame is different than some expensive frame it "looks" similar to according to some stuff they did in some lab. The article then insinuates that all cheap frames are dangerous rubbish without proving it in any way.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:04 PM
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Yes, the counterfeit is clearly being sold by a dishonest manipulator and all bets regarding quality are off. A self-branded Chinese frame may or may not be better, but at least it is not screaming scam at you.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:11 PM
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Real branded frames can suffer from wobbles too, I don't see why they make it sound like it's unique to counterfeit bikes.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:16 PM
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I work with cranes and any rigging stamped CHINA gets cut up.They are sending some real junk here.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:20 PM
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What makes carbon fiber a good material for frames is that you can use different frame and different densities for certain sections. The real one took advantage of that, the counterfeit didn't. The cheap no name frames probably don't do that either (takes R&D to know what to use where). If you want to save some money get a quality aluminum frame instead.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:21 PM
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Quote from the article....

"At minimum, it will result in a terrible crash.”

<face palm>
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Old 06-30-15, 03:25 PM
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I'm guessing that there are thousands of technical people in Asia, China included, involved in the bike industry that not only know how to make excellent frames and components, but design them and do all of the process engineering as well.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:25 PM
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The conclusions drawn are over the top, but the test results are quite interesting. Then again, I don't see why anyone would expect a counterfeit frame to be as good as the real thing.

Originally Posted by sced View Post
I'm guessing that there are thousands of technical people in Asia, China included, involved in the bike industry that not only know how to make excellent frames and components, but design them and do all of the process engineering as well.
And I am sure those who do charge for it. Things that are cheap are not so because of the good heart of the seller.
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Old 06-30-15, 03:26 PM
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I read the artical, to me the bottom line is some of the counterfits pose a danger to you, if they fall apart at 20 mph.

Honestly maybe the answer is to buy at end of year when price fall.
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Old 06-30-15, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sced View Post
I'm guessing that there are thousands of technical people in Asia, China included, involved in the bike industry that not only know how to make excellent frames and components, but design them and do all of the process engineering as well.
"Technical people" is a very broad an wide ranging term and means nothing toward building a safe and tested product. How many of those who are not only qualified but are allowed to do adequate testing are working on counterfeit products? One of the things that people never think about is that failure testing is essential toward building a frame. You don't want it to shatter or create mini carbon fiber lances, those counterfeiting the frame shape will virtually never have that level of testing. There's a big difference between open mold frames and counterfeit.

Here's another article from a few years ago.
Are All Carbon Bikes Created Equal? | CyclingTips

Originally Posted by Blue Belly View Post
The truth is that when working with carbon fiber, it takes no more skill to build a counterfeit than the real thing. It's the specs, the types of fabrics, the layup, the layers etc etc, that make it ride the way it does.
Absolutely false. Climate controlling the drying process of the resin to ensure no humidity/water stays in the resin/fibers or molding it in a low thermal expansion alloy mold are just two ways some knockoff likely won't use. Trek even goes to the point when they attach all the monocoque pieces together they use a carbon retaining structure during the heating and drying process to ensure the same thermal expansion as the frame. Not to mention possible contaminations, the effectiveness of the bladder system used to remove air out from between the layers and pressing the mat completely into the sharper corners, among a TON of other things. Just shows you don't know how to create a quality composite.

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Old 06-30-15, 06:15 PM
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Do 'they' fake other stuff too like $400 cf handlebars? seatposts? rims?
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Old 06-30-15, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Belly View Post
You have to admit anything sold as a counterfeit is a risk. Would I buy one, though? I might, if I felt comfortable about it. Any good product has online, independent, reviews to reference. The truth is that when working with carbon fiber, it takes no more skill to build a counterfeit than the real thing. It's the specs, the types of fabrics, the layup, the layers etc etc, that make it ride the way it does.
You counter yourself in the same post. Which is it no more effort or the part in bold? Do you think counterfeiters make the frames the same way or just look the same?
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Old 06-30-15, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wvridgerider View Post
I work with cranes and any rigging stamped CHINA gets cut up.They are sending some real junk here.
THIS. The stuff I deal with has gone to crap too. Some imported equipment is OK but the race to the bargain basement has resulted in some real junk.
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Old 06-30-15, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Vicegrip View Post
You counter yourself in the same post. Which is it no more effort or the part in bold? Do you think counterfeiters make the frames the same way or just look the same?
i think you are reading it wrong. When reading a set of plans, you build something the way it is outlined. It takes no more skill to put extra layers, or different weaves in certain areas. The article clearly states that they make them look very similar by all outward appearances. But that really isn't what makes the frame perform the way it should.
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Old 06-30-15, 06:56 PM
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Some random guy: "What kind of frame do you have?"
You: "well you see... I don't really know. I bought it on eBay."
Some random guy and maybe a few other random guys: widen eyes for a second then drops head and sighs
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Old 06-30-15, 07:14 PM
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I don't understand how they can conclude that the frames are "death traps". Who died? Youre a bigger sucker than the guy who bought the frame if you take your info from a website that is financially benefiting from Specialized and the rest of the industry.
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Old 06-30-15, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rms13 View Post
I don't understand how they can conclude that the frames are "death traps". Who died? Youre a bigger sucker than the guy who bought the frame if you take your info from a website that is financially benefiting from Specialized and the rest of the industry.
Thing is you can fault the guy for believing he was getting a legit product.

You cannot fault him for his pricing logic. Prices have gotten utterly insane of late. And no one seems to care or do anything about it, or hell even write about it. When a company announces prices are going up another 10-15% over last years insane prices everyone involved with the industry just smiles and nods.
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Old 06-30-15, 08:26 PM
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lame article, lame thread.
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