dr_lha

I'm not sure what the "who knows" is about. The tubing badge on my frame says "heat treated", unless Ritchey are lying I think it's safe to say their tubing is heat treated.

RJM

If it rides nicely, who cares what the tubing is.

Bah Humbug

Just trying to keep the joke going. Apparently failed.

At least I don't feel bad for derailing the thread.

Bah Humbug

Are you kidding? That's clearly more important than the groupset or the rider's FTP.

dr_lha

Well indeed.

rpenmanparker 

Forgive me. I missed that. No offense intended. But what you are saying makes perfect sense to me. He is using a cost effective steel that is easy to work and upgrading it with heat treating. That is exactly what I had thought was the likeliest possibility.

rpenmanparker 

I agree, but we can never know too much about all this when it comes time for N+1.

StanSeven

There's a good thread about aluminum going on that might convince someone

rpenmanparker 

After searching a few more wholesale 853 tubing catalogs, it does after all appear that thin gauge light tubes dominate the product offerings. That isn't what it appeared regarding 725 tubing, but it does look like that for 853.

Over and out.

Bandera

As Anna Roseanna Dana would say:

"Well, never mind."

-Bandera

rpenmanparker 

Are you THAT old that you remember Roseanne Roseanna Dana (or however it was spelled)? What a marvelous comedienne Gilda Radner was.

Regarding my post that started this sub-conversation...I think you got it right. Actually I feel like I learned something. I'm not entirely sure it was necessary to involve the entire 41 in the learning process, however. Thanks, guys.

Bandera

I am indeed "THAT old" and she will be sorely missed.
In cycling age I lined up behind John Howard, John Allis and the Stetina brothers: it was No Joke.

-Bandera

Jarrett2

What else are we going to do when we can't ride than talk about the intricacies of steel tubesets? Work?

rpenmanparker 

Perish the thought!

dr_lha

No offense intended. In fact I'm sorry if my reply implied offense. Have I offended you?

rpenmanparker 

Not!

adrien

Well, assuming someone is still interested in this thread (been on the road), a little personal experience.

I've owned two production steel bikes (with steel forks), and own two steel custom bikes. I also own a custom Ti bike.

I love them all. The steel bikes have a spring and a smoothness to them which makes them a unique blend of fast and comfortable. I love how they look and feel, and I find it vaguely amusing that the big bike companies spend a fortune on engineering and marketing...trying to design carbon fiber to ride like steel. Yes, they are a little heavier, though much of that is a combination of the build (lugged) and steel forks. My steel road bike runs about 20-21 pounds, and the fixed gear is about 16. For those who care about such things, the road bike is a mix of spirit, zone and life tubing with lugs, selected for me specifically by the builder. The fixed gear is dedacciai, with Cinelli lugs.

My Ti bike is much more aggressive, stiffer, and lighter. It's about 5-10% faster, but that's all to do with the position and the stiffness of the bike. With a carbon fork, it's about 17 pounds, give or take.

But here's the thing -- these bikes were optimized to my specification by their builders, working with materials they were experts at working. They got the characteristics I asked for and the personality I asked for out of the materials. But most of that is about the skill of the designer and the builder, not the material.

Oh, and rust: if you care for steel, it will last and last. IF insisted for years on sealing the BB, so if you have one you have to turn it upside-down and remove the saddle to drain it. Not a big deal. All my steel bikes get broken down and treated with T-11 once a year. It's not a big deal, and a perfectly pleasant way to spend a snowy afternoon.

rpenmanparker 

Let me try something else as a discussion starter within this topic. Reynolds seems to lump a lot of different tube specifications under the one numerical heading like 853 or 631. You can put together very different tube sets with different ride characteristics and different weights from what is offered and still have it be all 853 or whatever. Columbus and others seem to name a tube set like Spirit or Life, and I get the sense that is a fixed set of tubes, the only ones that can be called by that name. Other tube sets may use the same steel and treatments, but they aren't Spirit or Life or whatever because of their external and internal specifications. That was the case with Columbus SL and SP, made from the same steel and treated the same, but with different wall thicknesses. Back then Reynolds behaved much the same and had 531C, 531 SL, etc. Now it seems not so much.

Hence @adrien's comment above that he has frames with tubes selected from different Columbus and Dedacciai sets to make a customer-specific set and frame. You often see Columbus tube sets with the weights listed. I don't see how that would be possible with Reynolds sets, because of the ability to choose from so many tube specifications. If I have that right, it is an interesting difference in marketing approach among the companies.

79pmooney

I raced in those days (but not their league!). Lined up with John Allis a number of times. "Raced" against Dale Stetina once (and probably beat him). Club race he was riding prior to the New England 4th of July weekend races. He did not contest the sprint. I (along with the rest of a 29 man beak) bested John Howard's course record at the Maine International that he set after starting a 50 mile break with Allis and dropping him.

The Allis Loop is burned into my brain. (His famous loop west of Boston that everybody rode.) Winter fix gears, suspenders. The "Allis" way. John Allis was the godfather of Boston racing. It made for safe racing. We all learned the same rules re: close quarters bike handling. So you knew if someone was beside you, they also knew to keep handlebars even, elbows out.

Ben

Bandera

Ah, the Good Old Days when getting dropped like a hot rock by Howard et al was as inevitable as washing wool kit in the sink.
Now back to your regularly scheduled Steel Bike thing.

-Bandera

Jarrett2

What sizes are they?

What's T-11?

dr_lha

I was wondering that? Maybe he means T-9?

Amazon.com : Boeshield T-9 Waterproof Lubrication 4 oz aerosol : Cycling Personal Care Products : Sports & Outdoors

adrien

I did. Confusion on another item.

On sizes -- TT measurements below:

- Fixed gear -- 58, level top tube
- Ti road -- 58.5, 4 degree slope
- steel road -- 59.5, 2 degree slope

So -- in terms of comparing to production bikes, they are 58-62 equivalent. Big-boy bikes...I'm 6'3

jnbrown

Wow that brings back some memories from around 25 years ago when I used to go on a weekly "training ride" here in San Diego which was really a race.
Some guys I remember from that ride are John Howard, Steve Hegg, Kenny Souza, Greg Demgen. Being a smaller rider I would hide from the wind in the pack and sometimes would get instantly dropped during an acceleration at 30 mph if any gap opened up at all. I still see John on the road here occasionally.

Bandera

Was that the "Banana Gang" ride?
A cheerfully soul crushing experience and reality check that was.

-Bandera