I bent my hanger back by hand, was that wrong? should I not have done that?
08-27-15, 08:51 AM
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Hanger alignment is a mix of eyeballing things and checking the performance of shifting until one is happy at the result. Here's a quote from the Park Tools article on the topic:
Being within tolerance doesn't matter one whit if the bike won't shift, as was the case with a bike I worked on just last week that didn't shift correctly until I got down to within the millimeter level or at whatever distance is short enough that the gauge wobbled more than the distance.
Alignment is always by eyeballing. The tool just makes the relevant distance much shorter, and thus the error from eyeballing over the shorter distance is reduced to a manageable amount.
If you argue for having the gauge touching the rim at all four points, then we can discuss feeler gauges in order to ensure the "touch" is the same at all four points, and that gets absurd.
Ultimately what matters is that the rider is satisfied with how the bike shifts. There is necessarily a margin of error that makes the entire approach practical.
"Repeat bending and checking until the gap is less then 4mm. ... If three points 90 degrees apart are within 4mm, hanger is aligned."
So there's a tolerance of 4mm involved at the point where the gauge ideally touches the rim. And I will argue that the tolerance might be more or less than 4mm depending upon wheel size and the number of cassette cogs on the bike. What ultimately matters, clearly, is that the rider is happy with the resulting performance. Being within tolerance doesn't matter one whit if the bike won't shift, as was the case with a bike I worked on just last week that didn't shift correctly until I got down to within the millimeter level or at whatever distance is short enough that the gauge wobbled more than the distance.
Alignment is always by eyeballing. The tool just makes the relevant distance much shorter, and thus the error from eyeballing over the shorter distance is reduced to a manageable amount.
If you argue for having the gauge touching the rim at all four points, then we can discuss feeler gauges in order to ensure the "touch" is the same at all four points, and that gets absurd.
Ultimately what matters is that the rider is satisfied with how the bike shifts. There is necessarily a margin of error that makes the entire approach practical.
Last edited by BillyD; 08-27-15 at 08:57 AM.
08-27-15, 08:57 AM
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Warning: Enough with the arguing over nothing. Specifically you two guys.
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08-27-15, 09:00 AM
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Good thinking isn't digital aka binary or only one 0 and one 1. If insistence on binary thinking better have 30 data pts or 30 sets of 0's and 1's.
Or think analog which is what life is and certainly well engineered designs like derailleurs. Adequate shifting isn't the same as perfect shifting. You are the type of guy who settles and my background is developing designs and if well engineered designs are adjusted properly versus swagged then the result is much better. So no if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't apply. There is a spectrum of good and a range of bad....not just either good or bad.
So, either do it right and align the hanger properly and derive the best shift performance...or settle for a range of 'ok' by swagging the hanger position by eye. Sometimes a big difference in performance between ok and perfect where the bike slams into gear down the cassette because indexing is dialed and the rear derailleur tracks dead orthogonal to the plane of each cog which the designers hope if not expect from a good bike set up and sadly rarely adhered to in my experience. Even bike shops using the Park Tool because of time constaints don't even get the RD dead nuts in many instances...if they don't cross thread the hanger hole in process....more ham fisted bike shop wrenches than not and the average guy is even worse but there are exceptions. Never seen a high end factory bike with perfectly plumb hanger either FWIW.
Will give you guys another tip that may save you some grief or a lot of $$$ down the road.
There may be an inclination when building a bike to adjust the hanger early in the build process...say with the wheel loosely installed in back without adequate skewer tension. BAD mistake. Always make sure the rear skewer is adjusted with full tension and the wheel is dead in the crotch of the drop out. The reason is bending the hanger puts a lot of stress on not only the hanger but on adjacent dropout. If failing to have the skewer fully tight, one can crack the carbon frame in fact..the dropout derives strength by the wheel axle and it needs to be very tight...same tension you ride the bike with which also affects wheel position and shift indexing as well.
Or think analog which is what life is and certainly well engineered designs like derailleurs. Adequate shifting isn't the same as perfect shifting. You are the type of guy who settles and my background is developing designs and if well engineered designs are adjusted properly versus swagged then the result is much better. So no if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't apply. There is a spectrum of good and a range of bad....not just either good or bad.
So, either do it right and align the hanger properly and derive the best shift performance...or settle for a range of 'ok' by swagging the hanger position by eye. Sometimes a big difference in performance between ok and perfect where the bike slams into gear down the cassette because indexing is dialed and the rear derailleur tracks dead orthogonal to the plane of each cog which the designers hope if not expect from a good bike set up and sadly rarely adhered to in my experience. Even bike shops using the Park Tool because of time constaints don't even get the RD dead nuts in many instances...if they don't cross thread the hanger hole in process....more ham fisted bike shop wrenches than not and the average guy is even worse but there are exceptions. Never seen a high end factory bike with perfectly plumb hanger either FWIW.
Will give you guys another tip that may save you some grief or a lot of $$$ down the road.
There may be an inclination when building a bike to adjust the hanger early in the build process...say with the wheel loosely installed in back without adequate skewer tension. BAD mistake. Always make sure the rear skewer is adjusted with full tension and the wheel is dead in the crotch of the drop out. The reason is bending the hanger puts a lot of stress on not only the hanger but on adjacent dropout. If failing to have the skewer fully tight, one can crack the carbon frame in fact..the dropout derives strength by the wheel axle and it needs to be very tight...same tension you ride the bike with which also affects wheel position and shift indexing as well.
Somebody has something that doesn't work right. Usually it's not completely broken, just skips, makes noise, or doesn't work consistently.
Several of us reply and tell them how to fix it the correctly.
Then a bunch of folks reply that's not necessary because half fixed is good enough for them.
The corollary is when somebody wants to make mods that are clearly outside of mfg's specs. We say it might work, but it's going to be inconsistent, make noise or skip. Then people say, nah, that's OK.
To some, it's far better to fork with it and be frustrated than to fix it right the first time.
08-27-15, 09:52 AM
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It's the typical behavior here.
Somebody has something that doesn't work right. Usually it's not completely broken, just skips, makes noise, or doesn't work consistently.
Several of us reply and tell them how to fix it the correctly.
Then a bunch of folks reply that's not necessary because half fixed is good enough for them.
The corollary is when somebody wants to make mods that are clearly outside of mfg's specs. We say it might work, but it's going to be inconsistent, make noise or skip. Then people say, nah, that's OK.
To some, it's far better to fork with it and be frustrated than to fix it right the first time.
Somebody has something that doesn't work right. Usually it's not completely broken, just skips, makes noise, or doesn't work consistently.
Several of us reply and tell them how to fix it the correctly.
Then a bunch of folks reply that's not necessary because half fixed is good enough for them.
The corollary is when somebody wants to make mods that are clearly outside of mfg's specs. We say it might work, but it's going to be inconsistent, make noise or skip. Then people say, nah, that's OK.
To some, it's far better to fork with it and be frustrated than to fix it right the first time.
Its the good enough versus what's the right procedure argument which has more than one moving part.
Take away is...those that flounder with 'eye balling' things generally don't know best practice. Because they struggle so much, this is the world they live in. Others like you say, seek the best practice and do it right the first time which ends up with not only better performance but saving a lot of time by not have to constantly fiddle.
But the OP was asking...if even after the fact which could have had consequences to his RD and cost him a hundred bucks or more. He also may have fractionally bent the cage on his derailleur as well...hard to know without knowing what he grabbed. So he was told best procedure which there is little argument about for those detractors out there.
Last edited by Campag4life; 08-27-15 at 09:58 AM.
08-27-15, 11:12 AM
#30
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The OP asked: "Was that wrong?"
The answer is: Yes.
He then asked "Could this have caused permanent damage."
The answer is: Yes.
But should he worry about it? My opinion is "No, because the bike still shifts fine and the limit screws are adjusted correctly."
Of course using the right tool would be better, but for some people it doesn't matter. You don't need a perfectly straight hanger to have "good" shifting. I fix crappy bikes all day, I never check the alignment hanger with the tool (unless it's a nice bike.) I can still get the bikes to shift "well" just by eyeballing the hanger. Perfect? No. Good enough for 95% of riders? Heck yeah.
The answer is: Yes.
He then asked "Could this have caused permanent damage."
The answer is: Yes.
But should he worry about it? My opinion is "No, because the bike still shifts fine and the limit screws are adjusted correctly."
Of course using the right tool would be better, but for some people it doesn't matter. You don't need a perfectly straight hanger to have "good" shifting. I fix crappy bikes all day, I never check the alignment hanger with the tool (unless it's a nice bike.) I can still get the bikes to shift "well" just by eyeballing the hanger. Perfect? No. Good enough for 95% of riders? Heck yeah.
08-27-15, 11:23 AM
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IMO this thread should be closed. It's gotten a bit heated, but we seem to be past that. OTOH- everything that could be said has been and there are opinions on opposite sides of the "have the hanger checked with the proper tool" fence.
By now the OP has the info he needs to proceed, and it's up to him to decide which way. Nothing we add now will change things for him.
OTOH- if we keep it up, it may become heated again which won't help anybody.
By now the OP has the info he needs to proceed, and it's up to him to decide which way. Nothing we add now will change things for him.
OTOH- if we keep it up, it may become heated again which won't help anybody.
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08-27-15, 11:27 AM
#32
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I'll go with FB for the short term. For the long run, get a new hanger, put it on and before you mount the derailleur, have the shop check it with their tool. Then you know 1) it's aligned and 2) your hanger which is probably aluminum has seen the least possible bending instead of a significant bend then unbend. In the long run those two big bends add up to an aluminum part that is headed for failure. Keep this old one so if something happens to the new one, you have a few weeks of riding and time to get a third. That should keep that old Murphy guy away from at least that part of your bike.
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08-27-15, 01:14 PM
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As they say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". You had a bent hanger and you straightened it. Now the shifting is as good or better than ever, so what's to fix?
2 things for future reference
1- it's easier and better for the RD to hand bend a hanger by sticking a hex key into the upper pivot bolt and levering from there.
2- anytime you tweak a hanger, you should confirm that the inner limit is properly adjusted because this is critical and the margin for error is tiny.
Otherwise you're good to go, but shouldn't talk about it because the purists will be all over you.
2 things for future reference
1- it's easier and better for the RD to hand bend a hanger by sticking a hex key into the upper pivot bolt and levering from there.
2- anytime you tweak a hanger, you should confirm that the inner limit is properly adjusted because this is critical and the margin for error is tiny.
Otherwise you're good to go, but shouldn't talk about it because the purists will be all over you.
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08-27-15, 01:35 PM
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[QUOTE=popeye;18115444]Chronic severe.[/QUOThat
That was not directed at anyone in particular.
That was not directed at anyone in particular.
08-27-15, 02:31 PM
#36
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The alignment tool is primarily meant to be used on steel and aluminum framed bikes where the hanger is part of the frame. Replaceable aluminum hangers are designed to bend and break with less stress in order to keep the derailleur and frame from being damaged (the hanger itself is much stiffer and brittle than a traditional hanger). Once bent, they are pretty much ruined, and bending them back will weaken them even further. The aluminum hanger OP has is permanently weakened and compromised. While the repair job he did may work (for now), the hanger is still flawed. The best (and proper) solution is to get a new hanger. They are only about $25 - even on high end bikes. Get a new hanger OP. Duct tape, bailing wire, and half assed repairs have no place on a road bike.
08-27-15, 05:57 PM
#37
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haha wow, this got a lot more heated than I expected.
I think I will take my bike in to the LBS and get them to do a full tune up just to be safe, and ask them to align the hanger.
I think I will take my bike in to the LBS and get them to do a full tune up just to be safe, and ask them to align the hanger.
08-27-15, 10:44 PM
#38
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I keep several hangers as backup in my tool box. If the one on the bike is out of alignment, I just replace it with a new one. They are pretty cheap as parts go.
08-28-15, 04:13 AM
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The alignment tool is primarily meant to be used on steel and aluminum framed bikes where the hanger is part of the frame. Replaceable aluminum hangers are designed to bend and break with less stress in order to keep the derailleur and frame from being damaged (the hanger itself is much stiffer and brittle than a traditional hanger). Once bent, they are pretty much ruined, and bending them back will weaken them even further. The aluminum hanger OP has is permanently weakened and compromised. While the repair job he did may work (for now), the hanger is still flawed. The best (and proper) solution is to get a new hanger. They are only about $25 - even on high end bikes. Get a new hanger OP. Duct tape, bailing wire, and half assed repairs have no place on a road bike.
Aluminum isn't as fragile in terms of fatigue life as many believe or frames wouldn't be made out of it. Anybody ever try to fatigue a thin wall beer can? It takes several repetitions even with very thin wall to fail a beer can to fatigue. The hanger on any high end carbon bike is made to withstand several repetitions of bending before it would fracture. So all the speculation here about hangers fracturing if bent even a fair amount is rubbish.
So is too that a carbon frame isn't meant to have its Al hanger adjusted by a Park Hanger Alignment tool. Pure baloney what you write...right up there eyeballing a hanger....lol. Can't make this stuff up you guys believe. The hanger is designed to be bent into its best position via an alignment tool and if bent fractionally due to wear and tear...and even bent a fair amount due to an accident, it can be bent back into position without foul.
For you guys who didn't go to engineering school a basic principle. Every part made on a bike...the frame, the hanger and even all the fasteners have tolerances. When a fresh hanger is installed on a carbon frame after it comes out of paint, the hanger isn't going to be straight. This is because of respective tolerances aka a tolerance stack up. No two hangers are the same and no two frames coming down the assembly line are the same. This is why virtually all framesets sold don't have a plumb hanger relative to an installed rear wheel. There is more. Wheelsets have tolerances too. Bolt two different wheelsets to a frame...albeit its slight...will not be precisely plumb to a given hanger orientation. So for best shifting, the hanger needs to be bent into best position via a Park Alignment tool or equivalent for the best shift performance, whether the bike is made from carbon, Al, Ti, Steel or Bamboo. Hangers are made to bend and they can take several repetitions of bending before they are weakened to a point where susceptible to fatigue failure.
The level of myth in this thread which even bleeds into practices sadly used by bike shops to replace hangers needlessly etc is quite prevalent in the industry and unnecessary but not everybody passed high school physics or has ever seen a stress/strain curve and relies mostly on hearsay..or is that heresy?..and urban legend...including carbon exploding and many other old wives tales.
Last edited by Campag4life; 08-28-15 at 05:25 AM.
08-28-15, 04:20 AM
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08-28-15, 05:47 AM
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A derailleur hanger is about $20. It's like patching a tube versus replacing it....$5 versus hoping the patch holds.
Takes about 30 seconds to replace.
Takes about 30 seconds to replace.
08-28-15, 07:01 AM
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Sorry...but dead wrong. I will preface, I am a mechanical engineer. Things like stress and strain, fatigue etc are what I do.
Aluminum isn't as fragile in terms of fatigue life as many believe or frames wouldn't be made out of it. Anybody ever try to fatigue a thin wall beer can? It takes several repetitions even with very thin wall to fail a beer can to fatigue. The hanger on any high end carbon bike is made to withstand several repetitions of bending before it would fracture. So all the speculation here about hangers fracturing if bent even a fair amount is rubbish.
So is too that a carbon frame isn't meant to have its Al hanger adjusted by a Park Hanger Alignment tool. Pure baloney what you write...right up there eyeballing a hanger....lol. Can't make this stuff up you guys believe. The hanger is designed to be bent into its best position via an alignment tool and if bent fractionally due to wear and tear...and even bent a fair amount due to an accident, it can be bent back into position without foul.
For you guys who didn't go to engineering school a basic principle. Every part made on a bike...the frame, the hanger and even all the fasteners have tolerances. When a fresh hanger is installed on a carbon frame after it comes out of paint, the hanger isn't going to be straight. This is because of respective tolerances aka a tolerance stack up. No two hangers are the same and no two frames coming down the assembly line are the same. This is why virtually all framesets sold don't have a plumb hanger relative to an installed rear wheel. There is more. Wheelsets have tolerances too. Bolt two different wheelsets to a frame...albeit its slight...will not be precisely plumb to a given hanger orientation. So for best shifting, the hanger needs to be bent into best position via a Park Alignment tool or equivalent for the best shift performance, whether the bike is made from carbon, Al, Ti, Steel or Bamboo. Hangers are made to bend and they can take several repetitions of bending before they are weakened to a point where susceptible to fatigue failure.
The level of myth in this thread which even bleeds into practices sadly used by bike shops to replace hangers needlessly etc is quite prevalent in the industry and unnecessary but not everybody passed high school physics or has ever seen a stress/strain curve and relies mostly on hearsay..or is that heresy?..and urban legend...including carbon exploding and many other old wives tales.
Aluminum isn't as fragile in terms of fatigue life as many believe or frames wouldn't be made out of it. Anybody ever try to fatigue a thin wall beer can? It takes several repetitions even with very thin wall to fail a beer can to fatigue. The hanger on any high end carbon bike is made to withstand several repetitions of bending before it would fracture. So all the speculation here about hangers fracturing if bent even a fair amount is rubbish.
So is too that a carbon frame isn't meant to have its Al hanger adjusted by a Park Hanger Alignment tool. Pure baloney what you write...right up there eyeballing a hanger....lol. Can't make this stuff up you guys believe. The hanger is designed to be bent into its best position via an alignment tool and if bent fractionally due to wear and tear...and even bent a fair amount due to an accident, it can be bent back into position without foul.
For you guys who didn't go to engineering school a basic principle. Every part made on a bike...the frame, the hanger and even all the fasteners have tolerances. When a fresh hanger is installed on a carbon frame after it comes out of paint, the hanger isn't going to be straight. This is because of respective tolerances aka a tolerance stack up. No two hangers are the same and no two frames coming down the assembly line are the same. This is why virtually all framesets sold don't have a plumb hanger relative to an installed rear wheel. There is more. Wheelsets have tolerances too. Bolt two different wheelsets to a frame...albeit its slight...will not be precisely plumb to a given hanger orientation. So for best shifting, the hanger needs to be bent into best position via a Park Alignment tool or equivalent for the best shift performance, whether the bike is made from carbon, Al, Ti, Steel or Bamboo. Hangers are made to bend and they can take several repetitions of bending before they are weakened to a point where susceptible to fatigue failure.
The level of myth in this thread which even bleeds into practices sadly used by bike shops to replace hangers needlessly etc is quite prevalent in the industry and unnecessary but not everybody passed high school physics or has ever seen a stress/strain curve and relies mostly on hearsay..or is that heresy?..and urban legend...including carbon exploding and many other old wives tales.
As for the tolerance stacking, the hanger is already nearly spot on in terms of where it needs to be and a slight variation will still be within the mechanical tolerances needed for the derailleur to operate properly (which is why derailleurs have adjustment screws on them). Paint isn't going to throw it off that much. The hanger can tolerate a slight adjustment, but because of its low ductility, when it is bent past a certain point, bending it back will weaken the hanger considerably. Again, it might work, but it doesn't mean that the hanger has the same integrity it did. It will fatigue sooner because of its low ductility.
As we both mentioned, the hanger will bend a few times before it fails completely. Each time it bends however, it becomes progressively weaker, which is why the correct repair solution is to replace the part with a new one. Metal fatigue, ductility, and different aluminum alloys are not myth, they are fact. A competent bike shop will know this and will have happier customers as a result.
08-28-15, 07:44 AM
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What folks do to their bikes to damage a derailleur hanger is beyond my understanding In 32 years of road riding on six or more bikes I have never bent or broken a derailleur hanger. Never had shifting problems due to the hanger. And that time includes lots of pavement kissing always on the drive side. Maybe twenty times or more I have put the bike down on the ground at 15-20+ mph. What is going on here?
08-28-15, 07:49 AM
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Just to get my 2¢ in, I'd replace the hanger.
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08-28-15, 09:27 AM
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Here's another time-worn mystery rampant on the 41: every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to win an argument and establish credibility on the 41 claims to be an engineer . . . . . . . To the point where we have probably a hundred of them walking around here. Amazing that so may are drawn to this lil ol forum! Or is it just BS more often than not?
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08-28-15, 09:39 AM
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Here's another time-worn mystery rampant on the 41: every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to win an argument and establish credibility on the 41 claims to be an engineer . . . . . . . To the point where we have probably a hundred of them walking around here. Amazing that so may are drawn to this lil ol forum! Or is it just BS more often than not?
08-28-15, 09:43 AM
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Here's another time-worn mystery rampant on the 41: every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to win an argument and establish credibility on the 41 claims to be an engineer . . . . . . . To the point where we have probably a hundred of them walking around here. Amazing that so may are drawn to this lil ol forum! Or is it just BS more often than not?
08-28-15, 09:56 AM
#50
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My name is not Tom, Dick or Harry, but I am an engineer. My licenses say so.