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November Bicycles, what's the story?

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November Bicycles, what's the story?

Old 12-07-15, 08:54 PM
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Yoohoo
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November Bicycles, what's the story?

Been reading up on November Bikes, the "Rail" line carbon wheels and Timoneria Framset. I don't see enough information to help make a decision to invest, and not sure if paying 3.5K for the frameset would be a mistake? They seem to sell their products through their website, not seeing it on the floor anywhere? Does anyone have experience on the hoops, hubs, or bike that can give feedback? The limited web info on the brand reads well, and I'm always intrigued by small operations that put out honest work. Cheers!
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Old 12-07-15, 09:22 PM
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I personally cannot give you feedback on November products but I do ride with someone that has the Wheelhouse frame. He's had it for a couple years now and has great things to say about it. It's a gorgeous frame, I can tell you that. If you have Strava you could reach out to him there and ask a few questions if you like.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/121534
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Old 12-07-15, 09:23 PM
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At face value, what they say and offer looks good................
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Old 12-07-15, 10:18 PM
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I've been beating the crap out of set of RAIL 52s for 4k miles... good stuff.
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Old 12-08-15, 06:58 AM
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Everybody I know who has bought a wheel set from November really digs them, and that includes me. The rail seems like a solid product and throughout the development they were posting info to their blog which is linked to on the website.

. If you are really interested in that frame set, I would contact November directly and ask them questions about it. That seems to be the best way to really get the answers about it. From the website, it really looks like a nice frame. I really dig the color scheme too.

check out their blog too. It's pretty informative.
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Old 12-08-15, 09:14 AM
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$3,285 seems kind of pricey for mail-order. You can spend less for a nice carbon frameset at your LBS.


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Old 12-08-15, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
$3,285 seems kind of pricey for mail-order. You can spend less for a nice carbon frameset at your LBS.


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Are any of those frames handmade in Italy? Not saying that there's anything wrong with Taiwanese made frames (I ride one), but I'm just pointing out a distinct difference.
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Old 12-08-15, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Are any of those frames handmade in Italy? Not saying that there's anything wrong with Taiwanese made frames (I ride one), but I'm just pointing out a distinct difference.
I have a 2000 Kuota that's an "Italian" frame. It was made in Asia. I am certain that Asia is the primary source of Italian carbon frames.
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Old 12-08-15, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
I have a 2000 Kuota that's an "Italian" frame. It was made in Asia. I am certain that Asia is the primary source of Italian carbon frames.
November has stated repeatedly that the Timoneria frame is made in Italy. I have no reason to believe that they are liars.

FYI I have never purchased anything from them, so I have no "skin" in this game.
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Old 12-08-15, 09:55 AM
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Hi. I just saw this thread. We're of course happy to help in any respect but generally going to stay out of this thread and not interfere with whatever people want to say here. The exception to that will be correcting facts.

It's unbelievably understandable to think that the bike industry would pull the "we call it made in x place, but it's really made in y place" game. We don't play that game. The Timoneria is absolutely categorically 100% hand made in Italy. The carbon tubes are molded in Italy, the tubes are joined in Italy (frame construction is tube to tube), and all of the finish work is done in Italy. It's incredibly easy to figure out who builds the frames, they've just requested that none of their customers identify them, so we won't. We won't even confirm a correct guess.
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Old 12-08-15, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Are any of those frames handmade in Italy? Not saying that there's anything wrong with Taiwanese made frames (I ride one), but I'm just pointing out a distinct difference.
How about handmade in California?

Calfee Luna Pro with an Enve 2.0 fork $2,895

http://calfeedesign.com/products/luna/
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Old 12-08-15, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
How about handmade in California?

Calfee Luna Pro with an Enve 2.0 fork $2,895

http://calfeedesign.com/products/luna/
Well the difference between that frame and November's frame is simple: It's fugly, and November's is beautiful.
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Old 12-08-15, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Well the difference between that frame and November's frame is simple: It's fugly, and November's is beautiful.
Lol...totally true.

November's price for their frame doesn't seem out of line in today's marketplace. You could always buy a Trek Emonda SLR frame for four grand.
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And that isn't even a disc frameset
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Old 12-08-15, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
It's unbelievably understandable to think that the bike industry would pull the "we call it made in x place, but it's really made in y place" game. We don't play that game. The Timoneria is absolutely categorically 100% hand made in Italy. The carbon tubes are molded in Italy, the tubes are joined in Italy (frame construction is tube to tube), and all of the finish work is done in Italy. It's incredibly easy to figure out who builds the frames, they've just requested that none of their customers identify them, so we won't. We won't even confirm a correct guess.
But where are the carbon fibers made? The epoxy, the paint, etc.? Depending on how you interpret the rules and where your raw materials come from ('Made in USA rules here but the same should apply to Itlay: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ndard#standard) an unqualified 'Made in Italy' claim could be deceptive. Consider their example about the gold ring made from imported gold.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
But where are the carbon fibers made? The epoxy, the paint, etc.? Depending on how you interpret the rules and where your raw materials come from ('Made in USA rules here but the same should apply to Itlay: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ndard#standard) an unqualified 'Made in Italy' claim could be deceptive. Consider their example about the gold ring made from imported gold.
Dear November Bicycles,

You can avoid this issue entirely by simply stating: "Made in the core of a star, distributed by supernova explosion" in future. That'll clear up the thorny question as to the real origin of your materials.

Yours,

Dr_LHA (Dr of astrophysics)
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Old 12-08-15, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
But where are the carbon fibers made? The epoxy, the paint, etc.? Depending on how you interpret the rules and where your raw materials come from ('Made in USA rules here but the same should apply to Itlay: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ndard#standard) an unqualified 'Made in Italy' claim could be deceptive. Consider their example about the gold ring made from imported gold.
Since the carbon, mostly, was formed in a star that died billions of years ago nothing was made anywhere near here ever, except that the big bang happened exactly here so everything was actually formed initially exactly on this precise spot so actually it was. If you're going to make over the top semantic arguments might as well go whole hog.

On a different note, I have been extremely happy with my interactions with November. They're great to deal with and have given me no reason not to trust them. This isn't easy when you're over a thousand miles from them and pretty much have only dealt with them through email, including a warranty issue that I have no complaints over how it went. It's a good sign when you can look at warranty work and say you had a positive experience.

I think I have about 7500 miles on my Rail 34s and I still love how they ride and handle crosswinds. They, at least, are exactly as represented. Extremely well built wheels, too.

Edit: beaten. But the more snark the better.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
November has stated repeatedly that the Timoneria frame is made in Italy. I have no reason to believe that they are liars.

FYI I have never purchased anything from them, so I have no "skin" in this game.
i stand corrected, I inaccurately suggested that the November bike was made in Asia. My interest in Italian carbon, however, wasn't piqued by the November Timoneria web page. Some comment about "heirloom quality meets dynamic performance" has me bracing for the price and wondering if November thinks that an "investment" in their bikes is anything more than a purchase.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kc0bbq View Post
Since the carbon, mostly, was formed in a star that died billions of years ago nothing was made anywhere near here ever, except that the big bang happened exactly here so everything was actually formed initially exactly on this precise spot so actually it was. If you're going to make over the top semantic arguments might as well go whole hog.
I'm not making an 'over the top semantic argument.' Did you read the information at the link I provided? I'm merely explaining (unfortunately to at least a few people whose panties easily bunch) why some people might question an unqualified 'Made in Italy' claim, especially when Italy is not well known for carbon fiber production.

If you actually read the link I posted, you'd see that an unqualified claim requires a substantial transformation of the raw materials to be considered non-deceptive. Is taking carbon fiber and forming it into a tube 'substantially transforming' it? That's arguable. Is taking coal tar or PAN and making carbon fiber substantial? Unarguably yes, in my opinion.

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Old 12-08-15, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kc0bbq View Post
Since the carbon, mostly, was formed in a star that died billions of years ago nothing was made anywhere near here ever, except that the big bang happened exactly here so everything was actually formed initially exactly on this precise spot so actually it was. If you're going to make over the top semantic arguments might as well go whole hog.
I like the cut of your jib sir!
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Old 12-08-15, 11:12 AM
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I'm extremely happy with my $500 carbon frame from China. I couldn't see paying 7x more for a good story
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Old 12-08-15, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
I'm not making an 'over the top semantic argument.' Did you read the information at the link I provided? I'm merely explaining (unfortunately to at least a few people whose panties easily bunch) why some people might question an unqualified 'Made in Italy' claim, especially when Italy is not well known for carbon fiber production.

If you actually read the link I posted, you'd see that an unqualified claim requires a substantial transformation of the raw materials to be considered non-deceptive. Is taking carbon fiber and forming it into a tube 'substantially transforming' it? That's arguable. Is taking coal tar or PAN and making carbon fiber substantial? Unarguably yes, in my opinion.
I'm not going to read the link right now because I'm a little busy, but I will just say that at some point you have to draw a line. For me, where the carbon sheets are made doesn't factor into the "made in ____"
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Old 12-08-15, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
I'm not going to read the link right now because I'm a little busy, but I will just say that at some point you have to draw a line. For me, where the carbon sheets are made doesn't factor into the "made in ____"
Ok, but do know that the FTC disagrees.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
If you actually read the link I posted, you'd see that an unqualified claim requires a substantial transformation of the raw materials to be considered non-deceptive. Is taking carbon fiber and forming it into a tube 'substantially transforming' it? That's arguable.
From your link, "consider the plastic in the plastic case of a clock radio otherwise made in the U.S. of U.S.-made components. If the plastic case was made from imported petroleum, a Made in USA claim is likely to be appropriate because the petroleum is far enough removed from the finished product, and is an insignificant part of it as well."
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Old 12-08-15, 11:58 AM
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Italian statement of origin laws are somewhat famously more liberal. "In the U.S., there are some laws covering this. The “last substantial transformation” of a product must happen in the country of origin. Guillermo Jimenez of the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York says that phrase can be stretched pretty far."

The carbon used is Japanese, the resin system is formulated in Italy, and we have absolutely no idea where the paint is made.

The letter of the relevant law is satisfied with the statement that the frames are made in Italy. If your personal interpretation is that "the last substantial transformation" in these frames is the making of the carbon fiber rather than people who are either Italian or able to work in an Italian company, in Italy, mating Japanese carbon with an Italian resin system, and forming and curing that into tubes, which are then cut and assembled into frames and painted is that they aren't made in Italy, so be it. We won't argue.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
From your link, "consider the plastic in the plastic case of a clock radio otherwise made in the U.S. of U.S.-made components. If the plastic case was made from imported petroleum, a Made in USA claim is likely to be appropriate because the petroleum is far enough removed from the finished product, and is an insignificant part of it as well."
Likewise, if the base (PAN) for producing the carbon fiber was sourced from a foreign country, a 'Made in XXX' is appropriate. If that plastic radio case was molded using foreign-sourced resin and the marketing material referenced that specific plastic, the unqualified 'Made in XXX' is deceptive. At least that's my interpretation using the gold ring example.

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