Training pseudo science?
#51
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
Oh, is that what this is? Ok. I looked at all of my road bike rides for the last 2 summers & couldn't find one that was as slow as 19 mph. Mind you, my average daily ride is 40 minutes and it's very flat where I live. Even the 2 hour+ ride was 20.44 mph. But avg speed ewang contests are silly. Ewang power comparisons make more sense but bakes can't afford a shirt much less a power meter.
#52
- Soli Deo Gloria -
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,779
Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
Mentioned: 235 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6844 Post(s)
Liked 736 Times
in
469 Posts
OP, I'm glad that you're improved steadily. Seems like most here think that you might reach a clear goal more quickly with structured training. Whether you want to do that is up to you, of course.
That said, impugning benefits of training and the associated science behind it without knowing anything about the topic is unfortunate.
That said, impugning benefits of training and the associated science behind it without knowing anything about the topic is unfortunate.
What the OP describes is not training.
#53
wears long socks
Thread Starter
There's your answer, as in year singular.
If you're new to training, you're going to get faster by just riding more, and riding with fast groups. After you've been doing it awhile and you've picked all the low hanging fruit, a more calibrated approach is needed to keep improving.
Your approach for starting out is quite appropriate. You're still just developing a base and learning how your own body responds.
In fact many coaches who understand the science, encourage people to just a ride a lot when they first start out, and not get too structured.
There will be a time and place for structured training. You may not be there yet.
If you're new to training, you're going to get faster by just riding more, and riding with fast groups. After you've been doing it awhile and you've picked all the low hanging fruit, a more calibrated approach is needed to keep improving.
Your approach for starting out is quite appropriate. You're still just developing a base and learning how your own body responds.
In fact many coaches who understand the science, encourage people to just a ride a lot when they first start out, and not get too structured.
There will be a time and place for structured training. You may not be there yet.
So my choice will have to be (when I reach my plateau)... Keep riding at the pace I'm stuck at, or restructure my life to find more saddle time in an attempt to continue gaining.
#54
Serious Cyclist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: RVA
Posts: 9,308
Bikes: Emonda SL6
Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5721 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times
in
99 Posts
IMO, real people fast is averaging 250+ watts for an hour (measured watts, not estimated).
There is an e-wang chart specifically for power numbers, I'm sure it's floating around here somewhere.
#55
Kit doesn't match
That said, when general patterns emerge, we've learned something about how the world works in general. Might there be special cases? Sure, but they are exceptions rather than the rule, so if you're thoughtful, you'd bet that you and I are probably like the others and not so special as our mothers might have said.
So training plans that have been around for a long time continue to exist because they have proven to be effective for many. Might one work well for you? Likely.
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
You're not paying attention. With structured training, you could have had better gains with less saddle time.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,662
Bikes: 1980 Koga-Miyata Gentsluxe-S, 1998 Eddy Merckx Corsa 01, 1983 Tommasini Racing, 2012 Gulf Western CAAD10, 1980 Univega Gran Premio
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
The world of athletics is full of both traditional lore, which is often nonsense, and carefully developed, empirically tested regimens that are approaching some physiological optimum. When I was young I was repeatedly told not to drink water when the weather was hot and I was wiped out, because "it'll make you sick." I didn't get sick when I drank to quench my thirst, but I tended to believe these older, wiser guys. High school football coaches limited summer water breaks to toughen us up, until enough kids died that they were forced to rethink things. The vast majority of the junk sold at places like GNC are high priced placebos that end up in the toilet. So, yeah, there is a ton of pseudoscience and misinformation in athletics.
Just like there is in life. How many people believe that vitamin C or zinc will prevent a cold, or yet conversely are sure that flu vaccines don't prevent the flu (or that they cause the flu)? How many people think that there's some scientific proof that you need to drink 8 glasses of water a day, or that anti-oxidants are good for you?
On the other hand, in recent decades elite athletes and their trainers and coaches have spent a lot of time and money carefully measuring optimal training regimens and their overall effect on performance. In some sports, it's pretty easy to do this kind of empirical experimenting. If you want to believe that the elite riders are full of it when they say they don't train hard every time they go out, it's your choice, but it doesn't seem likely that you're right and they're all wrong.
As others have noted, if you want to perform better and better, you can keep doing what you're doing till it stops working. It might not be optimal, but it's working well enough for you, until you hit a plateau. And you will hit that plateau. The biggest risk is that you do something that injures you before you get there, forcing you to stop exercising and training. But you also risk never reaching your theoretical maximum limit.
If you plateau without injury, doing what you're doing, then you can either accept that you're the absolute best you can be, or you can give up believing that you know more than everyone else and try something different in your training. If nothing changes after you make changes, then maybe you were right all along, but I'd be surprised if that turns out to be the case.
Just like there is in life. How many people believe that vitamin C or zinc will prevent a cold, or yet conversely are sure that flu vaccines don't prevent the flu (or that they cause the flu)? How many people think that there's some scientific proof that you need to drink 8 glasses of water a day, or that anti-oxidants are good for you?
On the other hand, in recent decades elite athletes and their trainers and coaches have spent a lot of time and money carefully measuring optimal training regimens and their overall effect on performance. In some sports, it's pretty easy to do this kind of empirical experimenting. If you want to believe that the elite riders are full of it when they say they don't train hard every time they go out, it's your choice, but it doesn't seem likely that you're right and they're all wrong.
As others have noted, if you want to perform better and better, you can keep doing what you're doing till it stops working. It might not be optimal, but it's working well enough for you, until you hit a plateau. And you will hit that plateau. The biggest risk is that you do something that injures you before you get there, forcing you to stop exercising and training. But you also risk never reaching your theoretical maximum limit.
If you plateau without injury, doing what you're doing, then you can either accept that you're the absolute best you can be, or you can give up believing that you know more than everyone else and try something different in your training. If nothing changes after you make changes, then maybe you were right all along, but I'd be surprised if that turns out to be the case.
#58
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
I believe you and @Dan333SP have answered what I was asking. Thanks for that.
So my choice will have to be (when I reach my plateau)... Keep riding at the pace I'm stuck at, or restructure my life to find more saddle time in an attempt to continue gaining.
So my choice will have to be (when I reach my plateau)... Keep riding at the pace I'm stuck at, or restructure my life to find more saddle time in an attempt to continue gaining.
Interval workouts will wring your legs to rubber in an hour, tops.
Then add in a little (little) gym time on leg presses and/or squats, plus general core and light upper body... stuff you can do in 10 min a day at home without any special equipment.
And your longer outdoor rides start to move towards endurance (lower intensity).
#59
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,304
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 728 Times
in
373 Posts
I believe you and @Dan333SP have answered what I was asking. Thanks for that.
So my choice will have to be (when I reach my plateau)... Keep riding at the pace I'm stuck at, or restructure my life to find more saddle time in an attempt to continue gaining.
So my choice will have to be (when I reach my plateau)... Keep riding at the pace I'm stuck at, or restructure my life to find more saddle time in an attempt to continue gaining.
Not necessarily more saddle time (depending on how much you're already riding) But more efficient use of your time.
For example, one hour of targeted intervals can be much more valuable than sitting in the back of a fast 2 hour group ride.
Bunch of fast group rides are good for you now as you're learning to ride, progressing toward racing. After you've raced some, and you get to the point you're not improving, you may well find cutting down on the group rides, and adding targeted intervals will get you more out of the time you have available.
Also you don't have the time of riding to the group ride, waiting for it to start etc.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#61
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times
in
569 Posts
I determine what "hard" is by pushing myself until I can no longer carry on conversation.
Where I'm on the edge of "blowing up" while pulling the line until I need to rotate to the back.
I ride with a group where most guys are stronger than I am.
It's not uncommon for me to average 170bpm on a group ride.
Where I'm on the edge of "blowing up" while pulling the line until I need to rotate to the back.
I ride with a group where most guys are stronger than I am.
It's not uncommon for me to average 170bpm on a group ride.
Yikes!
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Posts: 2,076
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Not sure if you're mentioning my line specifically, but that's why I mentioned that larger frames "can" put down more power with the right training. Johnny Thunderthighs might struggle to hold 100 watts for 5 minutes, but a taller, heavier rider will put out more power than an equally trained smaller rider. Think Froome vs. Quintana.
Froome is skin and bones but still outweights Nairo by something like 30 lbs. Froome can sustain higher power at threshold by probably a fairly large margin (maybe 50 watts?) but probably still has almost the same w/Kg which is why they climb at about the same level but Froome can crush Nairo in time trials.
But yea, not really relevant here.
Froome is skin and bones but still outweights Nairo by something like 30 lbs. Froome can sustain higher power at threshold by probably a fairly large margin (maybe 50 watts?) but probably still has almost the same w/Kg which is why they climb at about the same level but Froome can crush Nairo in time trials.
But yea, not really relevant here.
Also I'd prefer to leave out any comparison using professionals as there is alot going on there that is completely irrelevant to this discussion pharmaceutically speaking.
#64
Serious Cyclist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: RVA
Posts: 9,308
Bikes: Emonda SL6
Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5721 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times
in
99 Posts
Wasn't really specifically calling out your post but I see alot of guys who carry around guts who talk about being strong on the flat and how their weight doesn't matter.
Also I'd prefer to leave out any comparison using professionals as there is alot going on there that is completely irrelevant to this discussion pharmaceutically speaking.
Also I'd prefer to leave out any comparison using professionals as there is alot going on there that is completely irrelevant to this discussion pharmaceutically speaking.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 1,445
Bikes: Lynskey R240, 2013 CAAD10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
This. A 200W FTP should be easy enough to gain and maintain without any significant structured training... maybe even 250W, which is about max what I can hit without structure. It's taken me almost a year of dedication, and structure with both training and diet to hit my current power (high enough on the e-wang), and there is no way I could keep it without structured training.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Posts: 2,076
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
This. A 200W FTP should be easy enough to gain and maintain without any significant structured training... maybe even 250W, which is about max what I can hit without structure. It's taken me almost a year of dedication, and structure with both training and diet to hit my current power (high enough on the e-wang), and there is no way I could keep it without structured training.
So it's probably as good a dividing line as any, for about as much progress most people can make without real training.
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18378 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
As far as science vs pseudoscience.
No doubt there is a lot of real science with training, fitness, and bicycle design. Look at the spectacular speeds attained by professional racers.
Whether that science trickles down to the forums is another question.
Perhaps we should term another term... FORUM SCIENCE.
No doubt there is a lot of real science with training, fitness, and bicycle design. Look at the spectacular speeds attained by professional racers.
Whether that science trickles down to the forums is another question.
Perhaps we should term another term... FORUM SCIENCE.
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 8,473
Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1743 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times
in
740 Posts
The question is...is it really "help?" Not sure what your age is but mine is 70 as of this past June. And, a lot of what people on this forum say works for them does not work for me.
There is one thing that happens here that I find fascinating. I am not generalizing but often I see someone post a question or asking for advice. And, often, I see people respond not specifically to the question but with some bit of information they have. Something along the lines of "I can't respond to your question but here's what I know." Sometimes this is just not helpful. You just have to know how to sort out the responses.
There is one thing that happens here that I find fascinating. I am not generalizing but often I see someone post a question or asking for advice. And, often, I see people respond not specifically to the question but with some bit of information they have. Something along the lines of "I can't respond to your question but here's what I know." Sometimes this is just not helpful. You just have to know how to sort out the responses.
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
As far as science vs pseudoscience.
No doubt there is a lot of real science with training, fitness, and bicycle design. Look at the spectacular speeds attained by professional racers.
Whether that science trickles down to the forums is another question.
Perhaps we should term another term... FORUM SCIENCE.
No doubt there is a lot of real science with training, fitness, and bicycle design. Look at the spectacular speeds attained by professional racers.
Whether that science trickles down to the forums is another question.
Perhaps we should term another term... FORUM SCIENCE.
#71
wears long socks
Thread Starter
Not necessarily more saddle time (depending on how much you're already riding) But more efficient use of your time.
For example, one hour of targeted intervals can be much more valuable than sitting in the back of a fast 2 hour group ride.
Bunch of fast group rides are good for you now as you're learning to ride, progressing toward racing. After you've raced some, and you get to the point you're not improving, you may well find cutting down on the group rides, and adding targeted intervals will get you more out of the time you have available.
Also you don't have the time of riding to the group ride, waiting for it to start etc.
For example, one hour of targeted intervals can be much more valuable than sitting in the back of a fast 2 hour group ride.
Bunch of fast group rides are good for you now as you're learning to ride, progressing toward racing. After you've raced some, and you get to the point you're not improving, you may well find cutting down on the group rides, and adding targeted intervals will get you more out of the time you have available.
Also you don't have the time of riding to the group ride, waiting for it to start etc.
I like the people who ride in this group and go just to hang out with them for a couple of hours.
When the pace gets too slow, I dial up 400 watts (forum calibrated) and sprint way ahead. Then I sip water and coast until the train catches up.
I also do "easy rides" with my wife, my 10 year old and my 12 year old. I pull the 12 year old around the 4 mile loop until I drop him and then I slow until he latches back on.
He hasn't ridden much this year, but he can hold my wheel for an 18.5 mph lap.
So I guess, without much structure, I do some of the things people religiously incorporate into a plan, but mine isn't so much a plan as just trying to have fun and get faster.
#72
Senior Member
The OP's anti-training program and spirited defense thereof is kind of silly, but so are the BF denizens presuming to know more about his riding and fitness than he himself does.
For @69chevy: modern training methods haven't been pulled out of thin air, there is empirical research demonstrating the benefits of certain types of training programs. There are ways to do this that aren't A-B testing on identical twins. This doesn't mean you can't get fit with your current approach, even fit enough to race. I got into racing by simply riding a lot, and I was initially reasonably successful at the beginner level. Move up even a little and it gets harder, for sure. That may eventually require a different approach. It did for me.
To be honest, if you're doing these rides and hanging on much of the time, you might as well sign up for a local Cat 5 race and see how you do. That will be much more informative about how ready you are for racing. Even once I started, depending on the rides I went on I would be crushing the front, or dropped. It really depended on who showed up. Yet I was racing and hanging in on those races. These days I'm a better racer than I ever have been (still not too great, though), but I don't go on a lot of group rides. Anyway, I think you'll find racing a fair bit different from a fast group ride, in that it's easier to hang but harder to succeed, if that makes any sense.
As for everyone else, the defensiveness is amusing. If you know what you're doing works, who cares what some BF rando thinks? Keep on doing your thing.
For @69chevy: modern training methods haven't been pulled out of thin air, there is empirical research demonstrating the benefits of certain types of training programs. There are ways to do this that aren't A-B testing on identical twins. This doesn't mean you can't get fit with your current approach, even fit enough to race. I got into racing by simply riding a lot, and I was initially reasonably successful at the beginner level. Move up even a little and it gets harder, for sure. That may eventually require a different approach. It did for me.
To be honest, if you're doing these rides and hanging on much of the time, you might as well sign up for a local Cat 5 race and see how you do. That will be much more informative about how ready you are for racing. Even once I started, depending on the rides I went on I would be crushing the front, or dropped. It really depended on who showed up. Yet I was racing and hanging in on those races. These days I'm a better racer than I ever have been (still not too great, though), but I don't go on a lot of group rides. Anyway, I think you'll find racing a fair bit different from a fast group ride, in that it's easier to hang but harder to succeed, if that makes any sense.
As for everyone else, the defensiveness is amusing. If you know what you're doing works, who cares what some BF rando thinks? Keep on doing your thing.
#73
Senior Member
#74
Banned
Join Date: May 2015
Location: North Jersey
Posts: 1,245
Bikes: 1975 Motobecane Le Champion lilac, 2015 Specialized Secteur Elite
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Your 12 year old child can do a 4 mile loop at 18.5 mph?
Even being pulled that is very impressive imo
Even being pulled that is very impressive imo