I am trying to find a road frame that would allow a fairly upright riding position (oxymoron perhaps I know!). I want the light weight (comparatively), the drop bars (for different hand positions), etc. of a road bike but with as upright a position as I can find. I have a short waist compared to my (still short) height and so far every production bike I have tried with drops has me outrageously stretched out to get to the hoods. I don't want to go custom right now but I have been eyeing Mercians lately, though not sure which of their "style" would be the best geometry for me.

To be clear, I don't have to go fast, I want a fun ride but I will probably put a bag or rack on the bike as this will be a utility bike...I'm certainly not a racer. The upright position is almost necessary considering the urban riding I do and my own comfort level, I just have to be able to see as much traffic as possible. My current setup (with swept bars) has me probably 50-60 degrees upright. I am definitely looking for a steel frame, and I'm guessing a 50 is the biggest I could handle. Thanks for any advice!

I suggest "Endurance" geometry bikes and also "Women-Specific" bikes.

I have a very short torso relative to my limbs, and bikes which fit my legs leave me lying prone, which my body simply cannot handle. Whenever I look at frames i look for a tall head tube and a short top tube. A lot of "woman-specific" bikes are designed for long-legged, short-torsoed individuals, and further, if you are short overall, a W-S bike might fit better in general.

Otherwise, google "[bike manufacturer] endurance geometry" and see what you come up with ... Giant Defy, Specialized Roubaix, etc.

Have a look at the Jamis Femme range (steel frames).

If you're familiar with the frame geo you're seeking, you'll find bikes there which have the shortest reach/tallest stack of any production frame in the market e.g. Quest Femme.

You might want to consider (gasp) a "hybrid" frame. Of course with the understanding you'll need to completely redo the wheels, drive, saddle, and bars. They're usually pretty upright and once you get reasonable quality components can be surprising.

An endurance bike would be good for you, also you could put on a short and rising stem to bring the bars back and higher.

I agree with all the above. Also Mercian is one of the finest bicycles ever built. A true classic. They will build you exactly what you require. You will at least need accurate "cycling" body measurements, but a session with a professional fitter to develop the blueprint of what you need would be even better. You can send that information to Mercian and then sit back and wait for a perfect bicycle.

Gunnar Sport; tall headtube, long wheelbase, rack eyelets, high quality steel with custom options.

This is enormously helpful! Thank you all for your input, I have looked into Gunnar Sport and the Jamis bikes now...I have to say I'm hoping to find a lugged bike (restricts options even more I know).
While I love to research and learn about bikes I prefer to ride them so I am new to this "frame geometry" stuff, but it is really time I learn . By "endurance geometry" does that mean I am looking for more of a touring frame? I want to do centuries and maybe longer, even like the idea of very light camping every once in a while but I was told by a custom builder that a touring frame (the Surly Long Haul Trucker was the one we were discussing) would be far too overbuilt and "dead" feeling of a ride for my size (I'm about 120lbs and 5'4"), especially since 99% of the time it would presumably be for joyriding/transport in town.

Looking through Mercian's "frame builder" they have offered as styles "race, sportive, tour & track". I'm sure I would have to tweak it still (Robert that's a GREAT idea!), but what of these styles would assumably be the closest to my needs? Would it be "tour"? Honestly I have no idea what the differences would be between those styles, frame-wise (I know what the finished builds would look like somewhat but don't understand how the styles affect the position of the rider on the frame)?

Robert, would they be able to fit me specifically with drops in mind? For some reason I feel like I'll walk in and be laughed out...

ETA, I'm super happy to hear you think Mercian makes a good bike! I don't know much about them but became interested because they are steel, lugged, can adjust things for my size and are assumably less expensive than full custom. Anything I should know about them? I was hoping maybe for 650b with a tire 32-38 (and room for fenders...sounds less like a road bike all the time, doesn't it?), I'm wondering if they will be able to do this.

Are you aware of any steel hybrids? I wonder if having to replace existing parts would be frightfully expensive?

ETA, does "hybrid" mean with a sloped top tube? My mom has one and its TT is like that. I prefer a horizontal TT myself, it's just what I'm used to and I think it's prettiest

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For touring, comfort on long rides, and folks who are not obsessive about being the fastest (or looking like they are) you will want a bike with a relatively long head tube and a shorter top tube.

Considering your size, I wouldn't think you would want or need a "touring" frame (like a Surly---(and I know the Surly aficionados will scream))----short tubes are inherently stronger so a bike which might be too light in my size might be really strong in your size.

I think you probably want a modified "sportive frame. "Sportive" means whatever someone thinks it means, but generally it is used to refer to longer rides at slower speeds than races ... Grand Fondos, big charity rides, "B" group rides (as opposed to "A" group rides where everyone is Type A personality, and needs to be the first to finish.)

Most bikes are good for a lot of things anyway ... but if you plan to do mostly around-town pleasure rides with some occasional touring, a "sportive" frame should be perfect. You could still load it down with four panniers, a bar bag, a trunk, and three bottles .... but since you aren't planning to cross Africa or something, no need to get a tank.

(I have done longish, fully loaded tours on "sports" frames with absolutely zero issues .... just avoid "racing" frames because they are so short, you will be kicking the panniers and fighting to keep the bike going straight all the time. Sportive sounds perfect.)

Now I have to go look at the Mercian site ... Look what you guys started.

EDIT: Based on whatever my tired old brain could decipher, Mercian calls the type of riding you want to do "Audax," as opposed to "full touring." You would have to ask them, but I'd imagine "touring" would have longer chainstays (more stable with big loads, more heel clearance, but harder to turn) and a slacker head angle (again stable when loaded but slower-turning.)

Probably someone there can work with you to take a whole lot of your money, and probably deliver a bike you really like---but only the money part is guaranteed.

Mercian can make you anything you want. I would skip the small wheels. A royal PITA. Your height is plenty big enough for 622=700c. But that is just me. Big tires shouldn't be a problem, but don't get too carried away. You could easily be disappointed in the sluggishness of the ride due to overly heavy wheels and tires. Also higher rolling resistance.

A fitter will determine the right measurements for exactly how you say you want to ride. Drops or whatever.

I agree with rpenman, no reason to go 650b. You are tall enough for 700 wheels.
I would also recommend getting the lightest stuff you can afford. You don't have to go full weight-weenie but at your size the lighter. the better.
You can do light touring on just about any bike. The last week-long motel tour I did the 4 women rode their race bikes. One used a backpack (not recommended) and the others had seatpost racks.

Be prepared to wait on your Mercian. Took me a little over 11 months from deposit to shipment notification (and then another 2+ weeks to get it over here with customs). That was all within the last year.

They make amazing frames, completely customized geometry at a fair price. Bob Jackson is another option if you're looking for UK steel (quicker and less expensive) as an option as well.

What you're describing sounds exactly what I'm looking for, don't need to be the fastest but want to be comfortable! Mercian's "frame builder" has "sportive" as an option, sounds like that may be the way to go. Haha your last comment is my big concern with a custom or semi-custom frame (other than the $$$ of course!), yikes what if it didn't work out.

Is there a production bike available in the "sportive" style? Mercian is still more than I feel I should spend on a bike at this time, of course the possible one-year wait (thank you for mentioning that softreset) is a bit of an issue as well.

Thanks for bringing this up! I thought it would be closer to 6 months but that's not based on anything objective. I am not specifically looking in the UK necessarily, just trying to find a bike that will fit and not be a fortune! Thanks!

This sounds exactly what I'm looking for, fast and fun and COMFORTABLE but not "the fastest"...this is super helpful, thank you. I hadn't considered that a frame my size would be stronger but of course that makes sense. Mercian's frame builder has "sportive" as an option. Your last comment is my big concern with custom or semi-custom (other than the $$$, yikes!), what if it came and didn't work out? Eeeeesch. I would still love to find a production bike, a good, pretty, well-made steel bike that I could TRY first! I am just really really hard to fit, have never ever found one even close.

Please tell me why the 700c would be better?! I did not expect the tires would make too much of a difference but that of course is my naiveté, please explain!

I would be very surprised if a S size in a women's model didn't fit you just fine.

The smallest I have found was a vintage Ross bike in about 44cm. Other than feeling like it was a little clown bike under me, I was still uncomfortably stretched out. I doubt it was a women's model though, perhaps I just disliked the bike itself.

A lot of small shop steel frame builders are 8+ months out from what I've found. Some (Mercian, for example) have off the peg bikes that were either made specifically for sale to non-custom orders or were made and the person who commissioned it backed out. So that's something to explore, obviously you'll lose the ability to pick the frame color and any specific tubing/braze on customizations.

I remember looking into a Richard Sachs and he was 6+ years out but as of a couple of months ago he's not taking new orders. His frame/fork combos were also $5,000.

I will say, one of the perks of Mercian was that their price was considering less than anything in the US. Just about every frame builder I checked out in the US be it steel, titanium, aluminum, carbon, even bamboo were at least double of Mercian's pricing and that was before Brexit.

I also don't know many steel builders that have bikes around for you to try. Even when I went to Mercian of the dozen or so bikes they had in the showroom none of them were "test ride" bikes. Your best bet might be to try an older Lemond in a standard size and then go on faith. I realize that's a tough pill to swallow but I can't think of any other solution, if you go that route.

I'll second this. I've got two female pals who are tiny. Both were happy with the shorter reach that is usually an important part of women-specific designs. One bought a Ridley Liz and the other a Specialized something-or-other. Both are carbon, so no braze-ons, etc.

Are you sure your feeling of being stretched out is due your proportions, not a personal preference to sit upright? At 5'4" you are just not that small. Normally you should be on a 51 cm or so. How short-waisted could you be after all? Just get your cycling measurements, work out your required stack and reach and find them in a bike line. Use bar reach and stem length to fine tune.

I was drawn to them because of the comparatively inexpensive frames, though for a total build the price goes up so much they're close to a full custom in similar spec...not sure why, I've emailed to get some clarification from them.

I can get to Chicago fairly easily, I'm not aware of any builder there but it would be something to look into.

Does there exist a steel, lugged production bike that is women-specific? I would be enormously interested.