TimothyH

Manufacturers use the term mid-layer all the time. It is a very common term, especially among hikers and alpine sports.The primary purpose of a mid layer is insulation. It is typically worn between a base layer and a shell. This type of layering system is very effective.

I don't like a heavy jacket and prefer a lighter shell on the outside. I also have several "thermal" jerseys but they don't insulate enough as a mid layer. Right now I am using an inexpensive fleece vest as a mid layer on colder nights but the fleece has lots of bulk. I was hoping someone would suggest something more technical than a fleece, something with just as much insulation, less bulk and perhaps some cycling specific features, that's all.

Apparently you are not alone in your confusion. Clearly many here have never heard of the term or don't fully understand the concept of mid layers. I hope this explained it for you and am sorry you were confused.

This whole thread is an example of how cycling has lagged far behind other sports in terms of garment technology. I am however, very glad that a simple jersey works for you.


-Tim-

kbarch

While it might be nice to get them from the same source as the rest of our kit, it's not particularly reasonable to expect there to be such a thing as cycling-specific mid-layer because there's nothing cycling-specific about it. A cyclist may be more interested in trim fit than other users, but when it comes to technology, what you describe is all that's required, and applies equally to any use.

Socks are like that, too - the whole cycling-specific socks thing is totally artificial and cultural - but I'd suggest that the reason we don't see the same phenomenon with mid- or base-layers is because cycling is not so often a cold-weather activity, so it's not something most riders want any of, while almost all cyclists do want some kind of socks. Also, mid- and base- layers don't provide much brand exposure.

Heathpack 

I think if your problem is that you're cold when you're riding, you could consider asking people how they gear up when they're cold. I ride in temps in the 30s and 40s all winter (I do my workouts before dawn) and I have this stuff all worked out for me. But you told us we're not allowed to talk about anything but "mid-layers".


Baselayer: Wool of two different weights, T-neck and crew neck- pick the right one based on temp
Jersey: Winter weight regular spandex type jersey or heavy wool-blend jersey with brushed interior surface
Jacket or vest: nothing bulky, I just use either a cycling vest or my rain jacket. If I wear my rain jacket, I pretty much am likely to be hot once I get going, because its water proof and does not breathe well. But I could count on being plenty warn in that down into the temps you describe.


Personally, I see no need for a special mid layer although I do see a need for good base layers. The rest of the stuff is normal cycling stuff that I already have. Of course, YMMV, everyone is different and working at different intensity, stopping for different amts of times etc, which is what I would have also said if you'd asked generally about cycling in colder temps. Keeping hands and feet warm is also way harder IMO and the thing that really makes people feel cold, so that's part of the package too.


Anyway, good luck. I really don't care what question you ask in the end, so I don't know why you brought it up. Headining out for my morning ride now, all geared up fro the cold.

WhyFi

Heathie!

Tell me more about this Rapha rain jacket. Also, tell me about gilets. I'd be interested in talking about vests, but I think Rapha only make gilets... oh, and bidons.

redfooj

casquettes too

TimothyH

There are plenty of cycling specific mid-layers.

The Castelli CX 2nd Layer or Classica Thermo FZ, Rapha Long Sleeve Jersey and 7Mesh Callaghan are all examples of mid layers. Any thermal jersey can be used as a mid layer.

I'm looking for one with less bulk, lots of insulation, wicking and a high collar. That's exactly my question.

-Tim-

TimothyH

I appreciate your suggestions but "cold when you are riding" are your words, not mine. I said I'm looking for a mid-layer, that's all.

Lessons on how to layer are also not needed although I appreciate that you took the time to type up your post. It means a lot to me. I have been riding bikes as a hobby since 1977, own plenty of base layers, thermal jerseys, jackets and gilets and am familiar with the way people layer.

All I am asking for are suggestions on a good mid-layer for cold rides - something with low bulk, lots of insulation, a high collar and maybe some nice cycling specific features. Something a little more than the standard thermal jersey. That's all.

Anyway, I've ordered a 7Mesh Callaghan jersey. I called 7Mesh and discussed it with Ian who was extremely helpful. Someone who owns one sent me a PM and I have high hopes that it will do what I want.


-Tim-

joejack951

I have this ugly, dull grey Pearl Izumi thermal jersey that I bought at a bike swap meet not long after I got into road cycling (2004ish). I still use it (as both a mid and outer layer) and after checking out the 7Mesh jersey, it appears very similar. I think you made a good choice.

the sci guy 

I have 2 of these I wear when commuting and saturday morning rides once it gets chilly Patagonia Men's Capilene® Midweight Zip-Neck
I also wore them hiking in Iceland.
Great stuff.

edit: i wear it under my jersey. Sometimes with a lightweight cycling jacket as well. Never got overheated.

Seattle Forrest

Base layer against the skin to pull moisture away from you, etc.

Mid layer (if needed) for insulation.

Outer shell (if needed) for isolation from the elements.

Cyclists do it differently because we generally don't face such harsh conditions, roadies by and large want to stay indoors if it's 60 F out. The three layer system is for people who ski, ford rivers, hike for days at a time sleeping on the trail, etc. Multiple layers are far and away more versatile, at the expense of having to be carried at times, which is a deal breaker for a roadie but par for the course for a climber.

Seattle Forrest

This is it exactly.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Seattle Forrest

I don't like fleece at all. It breathes ok, but if you work too hard and start to sweat, it gets clammy and I hate that.

On the coldest days: merino base layer, Accelero wind breaker, down vest. Wearing the down outside the wind breaker limits its warmth, the wind takes a lot of it. Otherwise it'd be too warm. The jacket is enough of a vapor barrier to keep the down dry, too. Works very well.

TimothyH

Interesting. Another take. Really appreciate this.


-Tim-

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm also confused by this entire thread. I'm a roadie in the PNW who rides year-round but only when it's not icy. I use 3 layers when just a summer jersey isn't enough: baselayer (Craft, SS or LS), and a jersey of the necessary weight for the conditions (2nd layer), and either a wind vest or wind jacket or neither, as conditions warrant (3rd layer). I dress so I'm shivering in the parking lot before the ride. That's perfect. The 3rd layer goes off and on as conditions change during the ride. I can put both my vest and jacket in my jersey pockets, meaning that my outer layer is light enough to stuff there. I can't think of a reason not to wear a bike jersey as 2nd or "mid-layer."

Below freezing is a completely different story. My mountaineering and Alaskan experience is that one should wear sufficiently warm clothing to be comfortable at rest and then attenuate effort to prevent sweat wetting out your clothing and thus ruining your clothing system. The vest on the outside of the wind jacket is a good way of doing this, as is a full down jacket or suit. Moisture transfer is the single most important key to staying warm while active. It was my Alaskan practice when resting to move on when my fingers and feet grew numb, taking up the activity level enough to re-warm them. That was never enough to induce sweating, but that's just me.

Using cycling jackets which combine windproof or water resistant and insulation has not been successful for me because of the moisture transfer issue.

franswa

It's a very pedantic thread.

This is also how I do it. I know I will be freezing the first few minutes, eventually warming up to an ideal level.

Seattle Forrest

"Dress for the second mile, not the first." If you're toasty warm before you start moving, you'll overheat.

It's almost cheating but a hot drink before you start makes that time in the parking lot less awful. Stop at one of those espresso shacks for a latte or hot chocolate, drink it on the way to wherever you'll park. The warmth in your belly is nice but it wears off quickly so it works pretty well for cycling.

(It's usually wet and cool here, but some days in the winter are dry and frigged.)

Seattle Forrest

Only on bluebird days, otherwise it's too much.

But a warm down vest in a stuff sack travels well in a bottle cage.

woodcraft

I mentioned this to my GF,

& she got me one at the thrift store.

It rarely gets cold enough around here to need it riding,

but will be great for other cold weather activities

(including at my house w/ base t-stat setting of 52f)

Seattle Forrest

I used to date a girl who would buy cashmere sweaters, cut the sleeves off, sew in an elastic band where the shoulder used to be, and use them as leg warmers.

Stratocaster

I think the OP simply wants to avoid the bulk of jackets, etc. and wants to layer 3 thin-ish articles of cycling clothing.
That's the way I read it. Not sure what's so hard to understand.
Base (first layer), mid-layer, and outer layer which is likely a long-sleeve cycling jersey.

Me? I'm still trying to find that sweet spot (not sweat spot), too.

TimothyH

Dragging this thread back up for a moment in case someone happens to be looking for something to add to their layering system.

In line with the search for a "warm mid-layer" to go with inner base layer and outer shell I've come across the Alpha Wind Jersey and Alpha Jacket from Castelli.
These have an inner insulating layer that zips closed and an outer wind block layer which zips over the inner layer. The Jersey is wind block on the front while the jacket is wind block and water resistant all around. The idea is to unzip the outer layer to vent heat but the inner layer is still zipped and keeping you warm. It's like two layers in one piece.

I think the idea brilliant enough that I've ordered the Jersey version. There is a 30 page thread about this garment over at Bike Radar with almost universal praise.

UnfilteredDregs

To do what you describe I wear a simple Hincapie Merino wool layer over my base which is typically an Assos Skin Foil.

Sy Reene

Sounds like a nice garment.. but if I understand the description correctly, why would one want 2 layers in one piece, but without the inherent ability to choose to remove or wear only one of them?

dalava

Cycling != hiking

Mid-layer is not required once you warmed up. Even a semi insulated mid layer underneath a shell will overheat you 5 minutes into the ride, unless you are trying to layer for big temp differences between the start and end of the ride, e.g. 30s in the morning and 60s at noon

Heathpack 

I know, right? I'm trying to figure out what kind of riding OP is doing that he does not experience this. Maybe he's talking about rides where he's just noodling around. I know that it's most challenging for me to keep warm on a recovery ride because I'm just not generating the body heat.

I can't wear my warmest jerseys under a shell if I'm doing an actual workout, I'd be way too hot. So I'm thinking OP is not doing workouts per se.

I could probably wear my warmest jerseys under a shell on a really cold day, long ride that was on flat terrain. Even then though I'd worry about overheating and I'd probably go with a lighter jersey.

My warm winter jerseys are the Rapha wool blend ones OP mentioned above, referring to them as 'mid layers'. But I typically would wear those on a maybe 40F day with a base layer and no shell. I use those warm jerseys as outerwear most typically, just more ventilated than my shell (which is actually an unlined, uninsulated rain jacket) and warmer on my arms than my wind vest.

Whatever. Still confused by this thread but I understand the appeal of shopping for cycling clothes. I'm tempted by some on-sale Rapha short sleeve Merino base layers, even though I'm fully stocked on that item right now and don't need any more.