I must say that I've never seen so much input or discussion on what is considered a "mid" layer. I'm still primarily a runner and as was mentioned earlier, I think cycling is somewhat behind other outdoor activities when it comes to cold weather clothing. I am using my closet full of cold weather running gear for cycling. I'm certainly not going to ignore all of my UA and Nike Pro Combat gear. I typically run in temps down to the 20's with no issues keeping my core warm. I put on a base layer short or long sleeve shirt then a long sleeve top. I really like my Pro Combat Hyper Warm tops and tights. Usually that's it for me, I'm a hot potato except for my hands and head. Extra care for these areas. I did just buy a new style UA top. It's winter weight, fitted fit, has thumb holes, 1/4 zip, and has a built in neck gaiter/hood/balaclava depending on how I wear it. Can't wait for some 20's next week!! Might even have to throw on my North Face running jacket to block the wind when riding. Maybe.

Long Z2 rides in cold places (not LA).

I'm never comfortable with a shell on unless it is in the 30s and raining. I've tried shells down into the twenties and teens and they simply don't breathe enough for me. So multiple layers it is.

I am also realizing that cold weather clothing threads on the road forum are like gearing threads in this forum. No one seems to be able to think outside of what works for them.

This.
Our bodies/temperature regulators are all different and what works and doesn't will vary greatly from person to person. Case in point: I do enjoy a soft shell anywhere from 20 to 40 degrees with proper base layers. The one I have does allow heat to escape the back and the back of the arms, though.

I think people just like to hear themselves talk.

This describes January and February weather in Georgia pretty well - high 30's at sunrise and into the 50's during the day.

@franswa writes about shells which are vented in the back. This is what I use when needed and it helps prevent overheating, works very well for me for the times when a wind resistant shell is required. Seattle Forest mentioned Long Z2 rides which are typical.

Those who have not tried such a "shell" might want to give them a look.

7Mesh Synergy
Morvelo Hemisphere
Castelli Perfetto

There are many others.


-Tim-

Add that to the fact that there's nothing cycling-specific about the design of a mid-layer, so there's no reason to expect any forum consensus on what makes a good one for cycling. But people do know what they like to use in cycling-specific situations, and will naturally suggest them and argue the merits they've discovered accordingly.
Yup. Guilty as charged.

There doesn't have to be anything cycling-specific about a mid-layer, but I can't grasp why the midlayer wouldn't be a cycling jersey (of some weight or other, short sleeve or long sleeve) that a cyclist probably already owns, unless this a cycling team thing, where a jersey has to be the outermost layer in order to show the sponsors' logos.

Ave temps on my workouts from this week: 32F, 32F, 37F.


However you are right in that they are not zone 2 rides and that's probably the difference. If I'm riding when its that cold, its probably before dawn and the reason I'm riding is to get a workout in before work. So its heat-generating kind of riding. Thankfully, my coach does not assign the long zone 2 ride. If I'm going out for a long ride, my instructions are: "Go enjoy yourself".

Look no further - Minus33 - 100% Merino Wool Men's Mid Weight 1/4 Length Zip - Style 714
I use this, it is warm even when soaking wet. Nothing surpases its ability to wick away moisture, its natural antimicrobial features make it so that it quite literally never smells, ( as an experiment, I wore this 24 hrs a day for 14 straight days, 7 of which included winter rides outdoors in 20-30 degree weather, then stuck the shirt under my wifes nose- couldn't smell a thing).
In winter I ride into the teens as long as the road is clear and not icy.
Base layer is a very lightweight short sleeve crew from minus 33 of merino. Second layer is the jersey above. Last layer is a showers pass elite 2 rain jacket, which in my limited experience, is superb in wind/water proofing and does a remarkably good job at letting moisture out.

I'm headed to Winthrop in two weeks to pick up my new wheels, do some XC skiing, and maybe rent a fat bike for a day. It'll be very cold, last winter when I was there I don't think it got above 20 or 25 F the whole week. Nordic skiing is a high output aerobic activity, like cycling can be. Even in those temps, I was toasty in a merino base layer and a good wind breaker, for long days on the trail. Because skiing is a lot of work.

In the winter, I do a lot of long, moderate rides to stay in shape and start the next year in a good place. (Beth is getting me skis for my birthday this year so we'll see how that changes.) Seattle winter mostly means 40 to 45 F and raining. Going up the hill keeps you warm, but as soon as you get to the top the wet pulls all the heat back out of you. I'm not doing that much work, I don't have anything going on in the winter to be in great shape for, I just want to come into next year in shape to enjoy the longer mountain loops, my own personal spring classics.

Not a lot of cold weather riding experience, my limits are low 40's and sunny. Not that I wouldn't go colder if I really felt like I needed a ride. I've noticed this fall that to limit sweating it works better to keep hands, feet and head warm, and let my torso be a little cooler. I was surprised when I might have had an extra layer on my torso than I needed, that even though I came home cold, how much sweat there was. This is with pretty breathable layers. The next day when temps were similar I went one less layer on my torso and came home less sweaty.

Thank you for this. Based on suggestions in this thread I have looked at their products and bookmarked their site.

Another player is Woolpower. They seem to be more popular in Europe and are very highly regarded.


-Tim-

By its very nature, dressing for cold weather is a very personally thing depending on our own tolerance. So not being able to think outside ones own experience is exactly what you will get, and probably what you are after to begin with. The key is to find your own way based on what others do and get ideas and inspirations from that. To insist on a terminology that's rarely used in cycling is actually not very helpful in getting others to contribute.

A few thing I remember when I dress for cold weather cycling, down to 20s (below that, it's Zwift for me), are:
- wind blocking or proofing layer at the outmost
- moisture wicking layer at the inner most
- if the temp is going to be fairly consistent during my ride, i dress for it without much though about layering
- I only think about layering if the temp range will be large between start and end of the ride
- if you don't feel little cold during the first 10 minutes of the ride, you've probably overdressed
- if you don't feel cold at the start of the ride, you are definitely overdressed
- a wind block vest is a magical thing, could take you down the 30s easily with a good LS jersey
- a neck gator is also a magical thing

Nice and informative site. Another is Ibex in vermont. Excellent products.
Ibex Outdoor Clothing: The Art of Merino Wool Clothing

Pearl Izumi Kodiak jersey

Thanks for the suggestion. A quick search didn't turn up anything but I'll look more later. Can you tell me what's good about this jersey, what you like or dislike?

Over at the PI site the Elite and P.R.O Pursuit or Escape jerseys look like nice products. The Escape looks like it has a nice collar.

https://www.pearlizumi.com/US/en/Shop.../p/111216224VR

It fits well, snug enough that it can go under a jacket or windbreaker if necessary, but it's warm enough that it can serve as an outer layer with just a base layer down to low 40s, or down to mid-30s if you add a vest. Breathes, transports sweat, looks pretty sharp.

And, if you couldn't find it on the PI website, probably isn't made any more.
Glad I bought two when I did.

26 F in Lynnwood WA right now. I don't know what it was last night (my Edge is crashed) but same ballpark. Maybe as warm as 30 F. Was out for an hour. Low intensity. Bet your ass I dressed for the conditions.

Are you still married?

Merino isn't a great base layer in my experience. On of my base layers is an Ibex Woolies 1. While the material quality, construction and comfort are ace, the chief complaint is that it doesn't wick nearly as well as synthetics.

And even as far as synthetics go, the baselayers from cycling companies aren't that great imo. I have switched to the Arcteryx Phase baselayers. The wicking is unbelievable even in warm temps. Construction and stitching is what you'd expect from Arcteryx, and with the latest material odor control is also really fantastic. Patagonia Capilene is also pretty good but the fit isn't snug enough for cycling and the stitching is a bit more abrasive.

Amazingly, 27 years to the same patient and loving woman. She deserves a medal. Really.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

"Almost all running and fitness apparel claim to breathe and wick - two concepts that cause confusion for many. The breathability of a fabric refers to its ability to allow moisture vapor to be transmitted through it. Simply put, its the fabric's ability to evaporate your sweat as you get hot. Wicking refers to a fabric's ability to pull moisture away from your body and keep you comfortable. Therefore, with high-performance running and fitness apparel, manufacturer's are always seeking the latest "technical" fabrics that wick and breathe very effectively so that athletes can maintain comfort and maximize performance.

Most of today's "technical" fabrics are made of synthetics, like nylon and polyester. Synthetics, by nature, have no inherent wicking capabilities. A microscopic look of a polyester fiber yields a smooth plastic fiber that is purely hydrophobic (water repelling). To give it wicking capabilities, some manufacturers apply a chemical coating to the polyester fiber to give it the ability to attract or pull moisture away from one's skin. This, combined with various weaving techniques increases a polyester garment's ability to wick sweat. However, many manufacturers simply use untreated polyester fibers and are totally dependent on the weave of the fabric to channel sweat away from the body and onto the fabric. Through the channeling of sweat onto a greater surface area (i.e., the shirt) made of hydrophobic polyester fibers, the moisture is able to evaporate faster than it would on your body. We call this passive moisture management.

As it pertains to breathability, synthetics are actually quite poor because they are essentially solid plastic fibers. Tight knit polyesters are actually very warm to wear and to compensate for this, running and fitness apparel are made of fabrics that are very thin. One of the biggest drawbacks to thin polyester is that it provides little protection from the sun's harmful UV rays - a concern for endurance athletes.

In contrast, there is a natural fiber that inherently possesses superior breathability and wicking properties - Merino wool. Merino fibers have a complex, scaly structure with a hydrophilic (water holding) interior, known as the cortex and a hydrophobic (water repelling) exterior, known as the cuticle. It is this unique structure that enables Merino to employ active moisture management. The hydrophilic core of the Merino fiber has an amazing capacity to absorb liquid - up to 35% of its own weight - so it's better than synthetics at moving sweat away from the skin and releasing it as vapor. In fact, in CSIRO testing, Merino fabric was shown to transport 27% more uncomfortable sweat away from the skin than a synthetic fabric. Furthermore, because of the hydrophobic exterior of Merino fibers, it delivers the channeling and greater surface area, like synthetics, to speed sweat evaporation. Not only does this mean that Merino is better at keeping the skin dry and comfortable during workouts, but this process of evaporation actually produces a drop in temperature which acts to make the "micro-climate" between the fabric and one's skin even more comfortable. Greater comfort is key to higher athletic performance. Lastly, Merino fabrics can be made very light and thin, comparable to the lightest synthetics, but unlike synthetics, they deliver the added benefit of sun protection. ."

Have you folks seen the forecast? Seattle's been frigid (by local standards) for a week, last night it snowed harder than it has in years and it hasn't all melted yet. The whole US looks about to get hit by some "polar vortex."

It hasn't been over 40F in three days in Texas. This sucks.

Not only does wool not wick as well as synthetics, it also doesn't dry as quickly, not by half. Craft baselayers are IME the very best, better than any non-cycling synthetics I've used, including Capilene, though I don't have any Arcteryx..

Experiment: select two baselayers of about equal weight, one wool, one synthetic. Soak them, wring them out, and see which one dries first. Or try a wool sweater and a fleece jacket.

Edit: I suppose I should mention that we were out on a group ride last Sunday, mostly 40° and cloudy, but we got hit by a one hour shower of graupel mixed with rain at 34°. No problem. I was wearing a Craft LS baselayer and a PI Softshell on top, cycling shorts with a PI Barrier tights on top, Sidi shoes and neoprene booties, ordinary non-waterproof insulated gloves.

No midlayer at all, folks. I was even comfortable. I should also mention that the PI Softshell is not good in prolonged rain, even with a wind jacket over it. For prolonged rain I use a midlayer and the wind jacket.